Discussion:
The Middle Voice
(too old to reply)
Simon Pugh
2005-11-07 16:17:10 UTC
Permalink
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
The example below is line 210 book2.
...; jamque arva tenebant
ardentisque oculos suffecti sangine et igni 210
According to the notes, suffecti is a participle in the middle voice.

However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice,
although I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but
reflexive sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.

Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
--
Simon Pugh
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bob
2005-11-07 20:42:42 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 16:17:10 +0000
Subject: The Middle Voice
However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice,
although I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but
reflexive sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
--
A good, contemporary and succinct treatment will be found in U. of Miami
Press, Miami Linguistics Series No. 8, "Problems in General Linguistics",
Emile Benveniste, Chapter 14, pp. 145-151.

Bob
Ed Cryer
2005-11-07 22:27:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
The example below is line 210 book2.
...; jamque arva tenebant
ardentisque oculos suffecti sangine et igni 210
According to the notes, suffecti is a participle in the middle voice.
However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice, although
I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but reflexive
sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle voice,
but I do not know any Greek.
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
Vergil uses that construction many, many times. I was taught that it's
passive and that the accusatives are "accusatives of respect"; "suffused as
to their glowing eyes with blood and fire" or, better English, "their
glowing eyes suffused with blood and fire". Now, Vergil knew Greek inside
out, and Greek does have a middle voice , but I'm not convinced that Vergil
was using it in that sense. You see the middle voice in Greek carries a
sense of doing something for your own benefit, doing it for yourself. And in
many of the Vergil instances that sense just can't be rationally applied. In
this one, for example, to regard it as middle voice would mean that the
agents were consciously doing the suffusing, rather than it being an
accompanying piece of perhaps autonomic behaviour.

Two points I'd like to make;
1. The construction avoids the prosaic ablative absolute; ardentibus oculis
suffectis sangine et igni.
2. I can't believe that Vergil misunderstood the Greek middle voice.

There's an example from Eclogue 3 that I'd like to quote;
Dic quibus in terris inscripti nomina regum
nascantur flores
(Tell me where on earth flowers are born with the names of kings inscribed
on them).
To regard this has having an active middle sense leads into obvious
absurdities.

Ed
Simon Pugh
2005-11-08 10:55:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
The example below is line 210 book2.
...; jamque arva tenebant
ardentisque oculos suffecti sangine et igni 210
According to the notes, suffecti is a participle in the middle voice.
However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice,
although I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but
reflexive sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
-- Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
Vergil uses that construction many, many times. I was taught that it's
passive and that the accusatives are "accusatives of respect";
"suffused as to their glowing eyes with blood and fire" or, better
English, "their glowing eyes suffused with blood and fire". Now, Vergil
knew Greek inside out, and Greek does have a middle voice , but I'm not
convinced that Vergil was using it in that sense. You see the middle
voice in Greek carries a sense of doing something for your own benefit,
doing it for yourself. And in many of the Vergil instances that sense
just can't be rationally applied. In this one, for example, to regard
it as middle voice would mean that the agents were consciously doing
the suffusing, rather than it being an accompanying piece of perhaps
autonomic behaviour.
Two points I'd like to make;
1. The construction avoids the prosaic ablative absolute; ardentibus
oculis suffectis sangine et igni.
2. I can't believe that Vergil misunderstood the Greek middle voice.
There's an example from Eclogue 3 that I'd like to quote;
Dic quibus in terris inscripti nomina regum
nascantur flores
(Tell me where on earth flowers are born with the names of kings
inscribed on them).
To regard this has having an active middle sense leads into obvious
absurdities.
Ed
Thanks Ed, digging through Allen & Greenough in section 397, they give
the phrase I quoted an example of synecdochial or Greek accusative. I am
not quite sure what that is but it sounds something like the accusative
of respect that you were talking about.

In the next section they go on to say "in many apparently similar
constructions the accusative may be regarded as the direct object of a
verb in the middle voice".
Eg: "inutile ferrum cingitur"
Presumably the middle voice tell us that he is girding himself rather
than someone else? So it is passive in form, active in sense, but for
yourself?

Someone else gave "I get myself taught" as an example of middle sense.
This seems slightly different from the above example because presumably
someone else would do the teaching. In the example, he girds on the
sword himself, or could the girding be done by someone else?

I find the whole thing rather confusing, but in practical terms, can you
assume that if you find an accusative with a passive verb, you are
dealing with one of these types of construction.
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
Ed Cryer
2005-11-08 17:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
The example below is line 210 book2.
...; jamque arva tenebant
ardentisque oculos suffecti sangine et igni 210
According to the notes, suffecti is a participle in the middle voice.
However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice,
although I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but
reflexive sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
-- Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
Vergil uses that construction many, many times. I was taught that it's
passive and that the accusatives are "accusatives of respect"; "suffused
as to their glowing eyes with blood and fire" or, better English, "their
glowing eyes suffused with blood and fire". Now, Vergil knew Greek inside
out, and Greek does have a middle voice , but I'm not convinced that
Vergil was using it in that sense. You see the middle voice in Greek
carries a sense of doing something for your own benefit, doing it for
yourself. And in many of the Vergil instances that sense just can't be
rationally applied. In this one, for example, to regard it as middle voice
would mean that the agents were consciously doing the suffusing, rather
than it being an accompanying piece of perhaps autonomic behaviour.
Two points I'd like to make;
1. The construction avoids the prosaic ablative absolute; ardentibus
oculis suffectis sangine et igni.
2. I can't believe that Vergil misunderstood the Greek middle voice.
There's an example from Eclogue 3 that I'd like to quote;
Dic quibus in terris inscripti nomina regum
nascantur flores
(Tell me where on earth flowers are born with the names of kings inscribed
on them).
To regard this has having an active middle sense leads into obvious
absurdities.
Ed
Thanks Ed, digging through Allen & Greenough in section 397, they give the
phrase I quoted an example of synecdochial or Greek accusative. I am not
quite sure what that is but it sounds something like the accusative of
respect that you were talking about.
In the next section they go on to say "in many apparently similar
constructions the accusative may be regarded as the direct object of a
verb in the middle voice".
Eg: "inutile ferrum cingitur"
Presumably the middle voice tell us that he is girding himself rather than
someone else? So it is passive in form, active in sense, but for yourself?
Someone else gave "I get myself taught" as an example of middle sense.
This seems slightly different from the above example because presumably
someone else would do the teaching. In the example, he girds on the sword
himself, or could the girding be done by someone else?
I find the whole thing rather confusing, but in practical terms, can you
assume that if you find an accusative with a passive verb, you are dealing
with one of these types of construction.
--
Simon Pugh
Remove X for mail
Some of them, like your "inutile ferrum cingitur" above, have all the
hallmarks of Greek middle voice.
There's a very comprehensive handling of the Greek middle in A. Sidgwick's
"Greek Prose Composition"; section 171-177. You can download it from;
http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/166/author_id/66/

Ed

P.S. I wish I had the heart to swim further to sea in this grammatical
archipelago, but I'm already out of my depth, and I'll wait to be taught.
J. W. Love
2005-11-08 13:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Vergil uses that construction many, many times. I was taught that it's
passive and that the accusatives are "accusatives of respect"; "suffused as
to their glowing eyes with blood and fire" or, better English, "their
glowing eyes suffused with blood and fire".
According to Philip Baldi, in _The Foundations of Latin_ (New York,
2002), middles may look morphologically indistinguishable from the
passive, but are conceptually distinct. Latin preserved the PIE middle
marker, *-r, more faithfully than Greek (with its innovations in *-mai,
*-sai, and *-tai): "Greek and Sanskrit . . . appear to have innovated
considerably in the development of [middle] verb forms" (p. 390). A few
tidbits:

"Middles are distinguished from deponents in that middles have active
counterparts with different thematic structures, as in _lavo:_ 'I wash
(something)', _lavor_ 'I wash (myself)', while deponents have no such
corresponding active counterparts" (p. 393).

Baldi detects three kinds of middles:

1. Direct middle, "in which the subject of the verb is in [sic] both an
agent and a patient or experiencer in relation to the verb." Examples:
_abdor_ 'I betake myself', _moveor_ 'I move myself', _tondeor_ 'I shave
myself'.

2. Indirect middle, "in which the subject acts in his or her own behalf
or interest, often intensively." Examples: _excalceor_ 'I take off my
shoes', _i:nstruor_ 'I furnish myself with', _optor_ 'I wish for
myself, select'.

3. Reciprocal middle, "in which there are conjoined subjects which are
acting on each other, not on themselves, in a typically patient role."
Examples: _co:pula:mur_ '(we) join together, connect', _li:tiga:mur_
'(we) dispute, quarrel', _partimur_ '(we) share, distribute'.

All Latin deponent verbs "find their origins in the IE middle voice"
(p. 395). "Middle verbs most likely provided some analogical support
for the maintenance of the deponent category" (p. 396).

Baldi gives a sample of deponent verbs with recoverable middle
meanings, e.g., _aporior_ 'I am in doubt', _mi:ror_ 'I am amazed,
wonder', _orior_ 'I arise, get up', _profici:scor_ 'I set out, make a
journey', _u:tor_ 'I make use of'.

A tangled topic, but of more than middling interest!
Simon Pugh
2005-11-08 16:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. W. Love
Post by Ed Cryer
Vergil uses that construction many, many times. I was taught that it's
passive and that the accusatives are "accusatives of respect"; "suffused as
to their glowing eyes with blood and fire" or, better English, "their
glowing eyes suffused with blood and fire".
According to Philip Baldi, in _The Foundations of Latin_ (New York,
2002), middles may look morphologically indistinguishable from the
passive, but are conceptually distinct. Latin preserved the PIE middle
marker, *-r, more faithfully than Greek (with its innovations in *-mai,
*-sai, and *-tai): "Greek and Sanskrit . . . appear to have innovated
considerably in the development of [middle] verb forms" (p. 390). A few
"Middles are distinguished from deponents in that middles have active
counterparts with different thematic structures, as in _lavo:_ 'I wash
(something)', _lavor_ 'I wash (myself)', while deponents have no such
corresponding active counterparts" (p. 393).
1. Direct middle, "in which the subject of the verb is in [sic] both an
_abdor_ 'I betake myself', _moveor_ 'I move myself', _tondeor_ 'I shave
myself'.
2. Indirect middle, "in which the subject acts in his or her own behalf
or interest, often intensively." Examples: _excalceor_ 'I take off my
shoes', _i:nstruor_ 'I furnish myself with', _optor_ 'I wish for
myself, select'.
3. Reciprocal middle, "in which there are conjoined subjects which are
acting on each other, not on themselves, in a typically patient role."
Examples: _co:pula:mur_ '(we) join together, connect', _li:tiga:mur_
'(we) dispute, quarrel', _partimur_ '(we) share, distribute'.
All Latin deponent verbs "find their origins in the IE middle voice"
(p. 395). "Middle verbs most likely provided some analogical support
for the maintenance of the deponent category" (p. 396).
Baldi gives a sample of deponent verbs with recoverable middle
meanings, e.g., _aporior_ 'I am in doubt', _mi:ror_ 'I am amazed,
wonder', _orior_ 'I arise, get up', _profici:scor_ 'I set out, make a
journey', _u:tor_ 'I make use of'.
A tangled topic, but of more than middling interest!
Thank you, that was really helpful. I think I am starting to see a
glimmer of light.
--
Simon Pugh
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Klaus Scholl
2005-11-07 22:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
The example below is line 210 book2.
...; jamque arva tenebant
ardentisque oculos suffecti sangine et igni 210
According to the notes, suffecti is a participle in the middle voice.
However I haven't found a good explanation for the middle voice,
although I gather it is a passive form that is used in an active but
reflexive sense and which can take a direct object in the accusative.
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
Active Voice: You act on others (Agent: you; Patient: others)
Passive Voice: Others act on you (Agent: others; Patient: you)
Middle Voice: Something HAPPENS to you (Agent: none; Patient: you)

Example for middle Voice: i sleep, i wonder if, i fall, i ...

Greet.
Steve Mesnick
2005-11-08 00:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis. For example, I've seen the Latin 3rd-person
future imperative (which English does not have) expressed
neatly as "Let them make it their policy to..."

For the middle voice, the easiest way to understand it
is with a paraphrase:

Active: I teach
Passive: I am taught
Middle: I get myself taught

Steve M.
Klaus Scholl
2005-11-08 00:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis. For example, I've seen the Latin 3rd-person
future imperative (which English does not have) expressed
neatly as "Let them make it their policy to..."
For the middle voice, the easiest way to understand it
Active: I teach
Passive: I am taught
Middle: I get myself taught
Doest "i get myself taught" mean
A) i learn
or
B) i teach myself?

Greet.
John Briggs
2005-11-08 00:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Scholl
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis. For example, I've seen the Latin 3rd-person
future imperative (which English does not have) expressed
neatly as "Let them make it their policy to..."
For the middle voice, the easiest way to understand it
Active: I teach
Passive: I am taught
Middle: I get myself taught
Doest "i get myself taught" mean
A) i learn
or
B) i teach myself?
Neither. It means "I take steps to ensure that I am taught". Actively
passive...
--
John Briggs
Robert Stonehouse
2005-11-08 23:31:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 00:39:14 GMT, "John Briggs"
Post by John Briggs
Post by Klaus Scholl
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis. For example, I've seen the Latin 3rd-person
future imperative (which English does not have) expressed
neatly as "Let them make it their policy to..."
For the middle voice, the easiest way to understand it
Active: I teach
Passive: I am taught
Middle: I get myself taught
Doest "i get myself taught" mean
A) i learn
or
B) i teach myself?
Neither. It means "I take steps to ensure that I am taught". Actively
passive...
Perhaps we could try a simpler, more concrete example like:
I wash your hands (active)
My hands are washed by you (passive)
I wash my own hands (middle)?
(Iliad 16.230 'cheiras nipsasthai - so L&S s.v. 'nizo:'.)
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
oudeis
2005-11-08 01:51:32 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis.
<reliqua pars deleta>

Good thing you put that "or at least" there. I assure you that
that... capability is in absolutely no way limited to the English
language, and I'd be totally struck with astonishment at someone
thinking it could possibly be, were it not for the fact that I once
read someone describe irony as "a feature of the English language"
(and of English alone, of course).
Steve Mesnick
2005-11-09 00:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by oudeis
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis.
<reliqua pars deleta>
Good thing you put that "or at least" there. I assure you that
that... capability is in absolutely no way limited to the English
language, and I'd be totally struck with astonishment at someone
thinking it could possibly be, were it not for the fact that I once
read someone describe irony as "a feature of the English language"
(and of English alone, of course).
I didn't mean to imply that English had exclusive rights to this %^).
The disclaimer was there simply because I claim full fluency only in
English, and I know that there are speakers of many other languages
here. I'm just saying that, in this context, English is the only
language that I feel I can speak about with any certainty. I suspect
that Inuktitut, Estonian, Yoruba, Warlpiri, Mandarin and Quechua do
this as well, but I can't speak with any authority about them. Clear?

Steve M.
oudeis
2005-11-09 01:05:08 UTC
Permalink
x-no-archive: yes
Post by Steve Mesnick
Post by oudeis
Post by Steve Mesnick
Language (or at least, the English language) is remarkably
flexible at expressing grammatical constructs that exist
in one language but not another. It does this by way of
periphrasis.
<reliqua pars deleta>
Good thing you put that "or at least" there. I assure you that
that... capability is in absolutely no way limited to the English
language, and I'd be totally struck with astonishment at someone
thinking it could possibly be, were it not for the fact that I once
read someone describe irony as "a feature of the English language"
(and of English alone, of course).
I didn't mean to imply that English had exclusive rights to this %^).
The disclaimer was there simply because I claim full fluency only in
English, and I know that there are speakers of many other languages
here. I'm just saying that, in this context, English is the only
language that I feel I can speak about with any certainty. I suspect
that Inuktitut, Estonian, Yoruba, Warlpiri, Mandarin and Quechua do
this as well, but I can't speak with any authority about them. Clear?
Steve M.
Clear as (clean) water, thanks - and that was if fact what I suspected,
but these days, and specially in Usenet, one can never be sure (what I
wrote above about irony is absolutely true, one of several... "gems"
I've run into; still doesn't compare with my favourite (of sorts), that
is, "God's English").
My actual wording does seem to imply a certain level of hostility which
wasn't intended, not consciously at least, and definitely not addressed
against your person. For that I apologise.
Paulo Tibúrcio
2006-05-03 09:07:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
[...]
Post by Simon Pugh
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
In Portuguese, when we deal with the concept of verbal voice, we recognize
up to four:

1 Active: The subject is the agent, as in "The dog bit the man." 2
Passive: The subject is the patient, as in "The dog was bitten by
the man."
3 Reflexive: The subject is both the agent and the patient, as in
"The dog bit itself."
4 Middle: The subject is also the beneficiary of the action, as in
"When I grow out of kindergarten, I'll find me a wife."

In greek, the phrase "I'll find me" would typically be represented by a
single inflectional form, a feature which makes the concept clearer. In
latin they went just so far as to the point of having distinct
inflectional forms typical of active and passive.

Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).

All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated with a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
Ed Cryer
2006-05-03 12:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated with a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
Across the border from you, in Spain, they regularly say "morirse" for to
die.
And I can't detect any difference of meaning between;
El perro murió
and
El perro se murió.

Ed
Grant Hicks
2006-05-03 16:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated with a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
Across the border from you, in Spain, they regularly say "morirse" for
to die.
And I can't detect any difference of meaning between;
El perro murió
and
El perro se murió.
Ed
In French the reflexive form "se mourir" changes the aspect of the verb
from perfective to imperfective.

(http://tinyurl.com/fx89a: "En général, les verbes restent constamment
imperfectifs ou perfectifs. Mais il y a des exceptions, par exemple
mourir : il est perfectif, c'est sûr, mais il suffit de lui conférer la
forme pronominale pour le rendre imperfectif. Se mourir, ça peut se
prolonger infiniment. Ça peut même ne pas aboutir à l'achèvement attendu
: quelqu'un qui se meurt le vendredi peut guérir le dimanche.")

Is it possible there's something similar going on in Spanish?

GH
Ed Cryer
2006-05-03 17:57:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Hicks
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated with a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
Across the border from you, in Spain, they regularly say "morirse" for to
die.
And I can't detect any difference of meaning between;
El perro murió
and
El perro se murió.
Ed
In French the reflexive form "se mourir" changes the aspect of the verb
from perfective to imperfective.
(http://tinyurl.com/fx89a: "En général, les verbes restent constamment
imperfectifs ou perfectifs. Mais il y a des exceptions, par exemple mourir
: il est perfectif, c'est sûr, mais il suffit de lui conférer la forme
pronominale pour le rendre imperfectif. Se mourir, ça peut se prolonger
infiniment. Ça peut même ne pas aboutir à l'achèvement attendu : quelqu'un
qui se meurt le vendredi peut guérir le dimanche.")
Is it possible there's something similar going on in Spanish?
GH
I don't think so. No. That statement "quelqu'un qui se meurt le vendredi
peut guérir le dimanche." strikes me as not there in Spanish.
You know the song "Guantanamera"?
Yo soy un hombre sincero
De donde crece la palma
Y´antes de morirme quiero
Echar mis versos del almo.

"Before dying I want to ..." The idea of resurrection strikes me as not only
not present, but rather ludicrous. It reminds me of "While I lay dying" by
William Faulkner. {:-

If you want to say something like "he´s on his deathbed" or "he's mortally
ill" in Spanish, you use circumlocutions as in English.

Ed
B. T. Raven
2006-05-04 01:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Grant Hicks
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently.
Take,
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Grant Hicks
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated
with
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Grant Hicks
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
Across the border from you, in Spain, they regularly say "morirse" for to
die.
And I can't detect any difference of meaning between;
El perro murió
and
El perro se murió.
Ed
In French the reflexive form "se mourir" changes the aspect of the verb
from perfective to imperfective.
(http://tinyurl.com/fx89a: "En général, les verbes restent constamment
imperfectifs ou perfectifs. Mais il y a des exceptions, par exemple mourir
: il est perfectif, c'est sûr, mais il suffit de lui conférer la forme
pronominale pour le rendre imperfectif. Se mourir, ça peut se prolonger
infiniment. Ça peut même ne pas aboutir à l'achèvement attendu : quelqu'un
qui se meurt le vendredi peut guérir le dimanche.")
Is it possible there's something similar going on in Spanish?
GH
I don't think so. No. That statement "quelqu'un qui se meurt le vendredi
peut guérir le dimanche." strikes me as not there in Spanish.
You know the song "Guantanamera"?
Yo soy un hombre sincero
De donde crece la palma
Y´antes de morirme quiero
Echar mis versos del almo.
"Before dying I want to ..." The idea of resurrection strikes me as not only
not present, but rather ludicrous. It reminds me of "While I lay dying" by
William Faulkner. {:-
If you want to say something like "he´s on his deathbed" or "he's mortally
ill" in Spanish, you use circumlocutions as in English.
Ed
But "morirse" is used in many idioms where the dying is not literal; where
in fact there is a quick recovery from the dying process:
me muero de hambre, no es cosa de morirse, me moria de verguenza, de
miedo, se van a morir de risa, morirse de ganas de hacer algo o morirse
por algo, morirse por uno, se muere por el futbol, se muere por hacer
algo. "Murio" is certainly "he died (he is dead) but "se moria" seems
closer to "se estaba muriendo." Can any native speakers confirm this? It
sounds progressive if not imperfective.

Eduardus
Arved Sandstrom
2006-05-03 13:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
[...]
Post by Simon Pugh
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
In Portuguese, when we deal with the concept of verbal voice, we recognize
1 Active: The subject is the agent, as in "The dog bit the man." 2
Passive: The subject is the patient, as in "The dog was bitten by
the man."
3 Reflexive: The subject is both the agent and the patient, as in
"The dog bit itself."
4 Middle: The subject is also the beneficiary of the action, as in
"When I grow out of kindergarten, I'll find me a wife."
In greek, the phrase "I'll find me" would typically be represented by a
single inflectional form, a feature which makes the concept clearer. In
latin they went just so far as to the point of having distinct
inflectional forms typical of active and passive.
A decent graph I saw for the four voices you describe above is as follows:

Two-participant Reflexive Middle
One-Participant
+ <---- degree of distinguishability of
participants -----> -
One-form ( Transitive ) ( RM )
( Intransitive )
Two-form ( Transitive ) ( RM ) ( MM ) (
Intransitive )
Non-MM ( Transitive ) ( RM ) (
sitive )

where RM = reflexive marker on verb forms, MM = middle voice marker on verb
forms, one-form = languages that encode reflexive and middle with one
marker, two form = languages that have separate markers for each.

By this view, both reflexive and middle refer to one entity (which is both
the actor and undergoer), but while the reflexive encodes the actor and
undergoer as two participants (which are the same entity), the middle merges
the actor and undergoer; they are generally less distinguishable.

On a more informal note, I like thinking of middle voice as what you have
when you try to translate into English, and you can't figure out whether to
use reflexive, impersonals, passives or what. :-)

Estonian also has middle-voice verbs, although they are not exactly
inflectional (although much of the language is). Rather, the markers are
derivational affixes, so "riietama" is a transitive meaning "to dress",
while "riietuma" is an intransitive meaning "to get dressed". But the second
form is not a pure reflexive, because the actual reflexive would be "ennast
riietama" (to dress oneself), so I could express "I dress myself" as
"riietan ennast" (reflexive), or "riietun" as the middle. Similarly "I
dressed the child" as "riietasin last" (pure transitive)or "The child will
dress itself" as "Laps riietab ennast" (reflexive), but "the child gets
dressed (by itself)" as "Laps riietub".

Also, something like "riietuma" is almost like a Latin anti-deponent: it is
active in form (if one ignores the derivational affix change), but passive
in meaning. Hence, while I can passivate forms of "riietama", e.g "mind
riietakse" (I am being dressed), I cannot passivate forms of the Estonian
middle-voice-like verbs, because they already carry a passive-like meaning.
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
"Benefit" would probably not be the word I'd associate with middle voice
verbs. Rather, I'd think of it as "having an effect" on the doer. In which
case, semantically, "die" may be one of the most unquestionable middle-voice
verbs one can think of! :-)
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
All in all, voice use depends on the word in question with its associated
meaning, i.e., a given word in a specific sense will be associated with a
morphological representation of a given voice in some typical syntactical
construction - and the allowed relationships must be learnt, not
calculated.
I agree, actual meaning is very important. Take the English verb "sicken"
(to take sick, get sick, become sick, BUT also to make sick, hence both a
transitive and intransitive verb). So I can say "I sicken" (I become sick),
or "I sicken myself" (but not the same meaning as "I sicken"). In fact, the
shade of meaning here is comparable (but not identical) to my chosen
Estonian verbs above, where "riietan ennast" (I dress myself), "mind
riietakse" (I am [being] dressed) and "riietun" (I get dressed [with me
doing the dressing, probably]) all allow the possibility that I end up
dressed because I threw the clothes on myself, but the distinguishability of
who is doing the dressing is emphasized in various degrees.

AHS
Klaus Scholl
2006-05-04 05:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arved Sandstrom
Two-participant Reflexive Middle
One-Participant
+ <---- degree of distinguishability of
participants -----> -
One-form ( Transitive ) ( RM )
( Intransitive )
Two-form ( Transitive ) ( RM ) ( MM ) (
Intransitive )
Non-MM ( Transitive ) ( RM ) (
sitive )
By this view, both reflexive and middle refer to one entity (which is both
the actor and undergoer), but while the reflexive encodes the actor and
undergoer as two participants (which are the same entity), the middle merges
the actor and undergoer; they are generally less distinguishable.
As one Entitiy? Yes and No. You can see reflexive Voice and active Voice
as Entity as well. Because it is a point of View.
You could consider Reflexive-Voice as
A) "i [Verb in middle Voice] by myself" (e.g. "i die by myself")
but as well as
B) "i [Verb in active Voice] myself" (e.g. "i kill myself")
Natural Languages tend to follow B). That is as Derivate of Active Voice.
The best Example you give with "ennast riietama", it isnt expressed by
"riietuma minu poolest". In English we prefer the active Construction as
well.
Post by Arved Sandstrom
Of course, although the "original" meaning of the voices should be roughly
as above, meaning and form don't always behave so consistently. Take, for
instance, "The dog died.": although the form is active, the meaning is
neither active nor passive (in the sense of being the patient of someone
else's action); neither can one say it is reflexive (as the dog couldn't
die someone else) or middle voiced (as it is not meant that the dog died
for his own benefit).
Yes indeed, rather often Form and Meaning doesnt correlate.
That is why it is so important to see Form and Meaning (Voice) not as
one Entity
but to keep them apart. This sounds easy but it's not:
You could say "die" is "Active" and you can say it is "Middle",
both is true. Because it has active Form, and middle Voice.
Terms like "active", "passive", "reflexive", "transitive",
"intransitiv" etc. refer to mere Form, while Terms like
"active Voice", "passive Voice", "reflexive Voice" refer to
mere Meaning.

And there is some Chaos: since we have no own "Middle Form" for
"Middle Voice", we help ourselves by using haply other Forms as Makeshifts:
# We use Verbs in "Active" Form to express "Middle Voice" (to wonder, or
your "sicken"),
# We use Verbs in "Reflexive" Form to express "Middle Voice" (i can't
help myself),
# We use Verbs in "Passive" Form to express "Middle Voice" (i get stoned).
# We use "become" together with an Adjective to express "Middle Voice"
(to become more green).


Greet the Klaus.
Arved Sandstrom
2006-05-04 19:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Scholl
Post by Arved Sandstrom
Two-participant Reflexive Middle
One-Participant
+ <---- degree of distinguishability of
participants -----> -
One-form ( Transitive ) ( RM )
( Intransitive )
Two-form ( Transitive ) ( RM ) ( MM ) (
Intransitive )
Non-MM ( Transitive ) ( RM ) (
sitive )
By this view, both reflexive and middle refer to one entity (which is both
the actor and undergoer), but while the reflexive encodes the actor and
undergoer as two participants (which are the same entity), the middle merges
the actor and undergoer; they are generally less distinguishable.
As one Entitiy? Yes and No. You can see reflexive Voice and active Voice
as Entity as well. Because it is a point of View.
You could consider Reflexive-Voice as
A) "i [Verb in middle Voice] by myself" (e.g. "i die by myself")
but as well as
B) "i [Verb in active Voice] myself" (e.g. "i kill myself")
Natural Languages tend to follow B). That is as Derivate of Active Voice.
The best Example you give with "ennast riietama", it isnt expressed by
"riietuma minu poolest". In English we prefer the active Construction as
well.
I am unsure as to what is preferred in Estonian. It often comes down to the
education level of the speaker (and I do include native speakers). It is
easier to make a transitive verb reflexive than it is to remember that there
is another verb that is active in form but reflexive-passive in meaning. I
use reflexive-passive on purpose, as some of the verbs carry a meaning of
"some action can or cannot be done to me/you/him...", and it's tough to say
what classification that is.

That is a noteworthy attempt at Estonian, namely "riietuma minu poolest".
Actual legal possibilities, using "riietama" (v.t.) and "riietuma" (v.i.),
are:

1. Riietun - I get dressed (nothing can be added, as in an agent, and this
verb cannot be passivated or made reflexive);
2. Riietan ennast - I dress myself (reflexive);
3. Riietatakse - (something) is dressed (by who knows who), hence "mind
riietatakse" for "I am (being) dressed";
4. Mind riietatakse minu poolt - I am being dressed by me. Grammatically
correct, but you'd never see it; in Estonian the passive rejects the
specification of an agent quite strongly, and if you felt you needed one the
active voice would be used.

As a grammar sidenote, the undergoer of a passive verb action in Estonian is
objectified, as it is not in English or Latin. However, the Finnic languages
have a different kind of passive in any case; it is more abstract, which is
why unlike other verb forms (OK, I won't speak for Finnish :-)) it does not
conjugate by person, hence "mind riietatakse" (lit. me am being dressed),
"teda riietatakse" (lit. him is being dressed), and so forth.

"Poolest" is close, but no cigar - it actually means "with respect to,
because of, by, in...". :-) But not "by" in the sense of an agent.
[ SNIP ]

In general terms I agree with your comments. It does seems that form and
voice are not reliable indicators of meaning. In this respect I think the
English intransitives are particularly worthy of note, or English
transitives/intransitives. We already discussed "to die", but what about "to
sleep", "to walk", or "to eat"? First two being complete intransitives (OK,
walk has some transitive meanings also), and "to eat" being either. Quite
often the intransitives have a middle voice meaning.

AHS

Klaus Scholl
2006-05-04 02:57:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Post by Simon Pugh
I've encountered the middle voice several times now while reading the
Aeneid.
[...]
Post by Simon Pugh
Is there more to be said about it? I understand Greek has a middle
voice, but I do not know any Greek.
In Portuguese, when we deal with the concept of verbal voice, we recognize
Active: The subject is the agent, as in "The dog bit the man."
Passive: The subject is the patient, as in "The dog was bitten
by the man."
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Reflexive: The subject is both the agent and the patient, as in
"The dog bit itself."
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
Middle: The subject is also the beneficiary of the action, as in
"When I grow out of kindergarten, I'll find me a wife."
From the ontological View,

the Middle Voice is the Experience of the Verbs Notion. You can see it
as the most basic Voice.
The Active Voice is the Middle Voices Brother, namely the Effectuation
of the Verbs Notion.
Those two Voice are so to say "all you need".

What we call "Passive Voice" "Reflexive Voice", or "Natural Voice"
are nothing else than logical Species, special Variants of the Middle Voice.
They inform us about the Controller of the Verbs Notion.
It is minor important additional Information ("who does it?"):
a) the Subject itself => Reflexive
b) a third Person => Passive
c) noone (known) => Natural

So you could display it ontologically as:
1. Experience
2. Effectuation
2.1 Effectuation by self
2.2 Effectuation by other
2.3 Effectuation by Nature/noone

In modern Languages we are used to the Passive,
and middle Voice appears strange to us. I deem that unsound,
because the Middle Voice was ousted/displaced by its own
Subspecies (the Passive), by its own _minor important_ Variant.
Isnt _that_ strange and unsound?


Greet from the Klaus.
Klaus Scholl
2006-05-04 03:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paulo Tibúrcio
In Portuguese, when we deal with the concept of verbal voice, we recognize
1 Active: The subject is the agent, as in "The dog bit the man." 2
Passive: The subject is the patient, as in "The dog was bitten by
the man."
3 Reflexive: The subject is both the agent and the patient, as in
"The dog bit itself."
4 Middle: The subject is also the beneficiary of the action, as in
"When I grow out of kindergarten, I'll find me a wife."
From the ontological View,

the Middle Voice is the Experience of the Verbs Notion. You can see it
as the most basic Voice.
The Active Voice is the Middle Voices Brother, namely the Effectuation
of the Verbs Notion.
Those two Voice are so to say "all you need".

What we call "Passive Voice" and "Reflexive Voice" are nothing else
than logical Species, special Variants of the Middle Voice
or the Active Voice. They inform us about the Controller of the Verbs
Notion.
It is minor important additional Information ("who does it?"):
The Subject itself? A third Person? Noone (known)?

So you could display it ontologically as:
1. Experience (= MIDDLE VOICE)
1.1 controlled by self (= unusual)
1.2 controlled by other (= PASSIVE VOICE)
1.3 controlled by none (unusual, i call it INCIDENTAL VOICE)
2. Effectuation (= ACTIVE VOICE)
2.1 controlled by self (= REFLEXIVE VOICE)
2.2 controlled by other (unusual)
3.3 controlled by none (unusual)

At least that is my Point of View :-)
In modern Languages we are used to the Passive, and middle Voice appears
strange to us.
I deem that unsound. The Middle Voice was ousted/displaced by its own
Subspecies (the Passive), by its own _minor important_ Variant. Isnt
that strange?

Greet from the Klaus.
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