Discussion:
O.T. Question that some might know: How should you pronounce, "Ctesiphon" ? -- TIA, Andrew
(too old to reply)
R***@grouponly.org
2008-01-24 02:52:41 UTC
Permalink
carolus
2008-01-24 11:08:22 UTC
Permalink
On 24 Jan, 03:52, ***@grouponly.org wrote:
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
B. T. Raven
2008-01-24 12:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
In Greek or Latin:

kte´sifon

In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.

Good question. Not off topic.

Eduardus
Ed Cryer
2008-01-24 12:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
Eduardus
It's originally a Greek name; and the "kt" combination was common in
Greek, pronounced as you say.
When Athens became a democracy, personal names changed to match the new
politics. Names like Pythagoras, Demosthenes, Antiphon, Ktesiphon all
suited to the new art of rhetoric and persuasion in the Assembly and
courts.
The old ones were things like Aristoboulos, Aristophanes, Aristeides.

Ed
Ed Cryer
2008-01-24 12:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
Eduardus
Thinking about ancient Greece and proper pronunciation of Greek there
has led me to a dilemma that seems to fit not only the old either/either
controversy but your assertion about lack of competent authorities.

There were three main dialects; Attic-Ionic, Doric and Aeolic. Most of
the great surviving literature is in the first, but enough of the others
is extant to show the split.
There are also enough comedies of Aristophanes in which he sends up
non-Attic speech; especially the Doric of Sparta. I get the impression
that in that regular occurrence on a battle-field of two shield-walls
facing each other before one came rushing in, there was probably quite a
lot of "either/either" taunting shouted between the lines.

Ed
Andrew
2008-01-24 15:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
Eduardus
Thinking about ancient Greece and proper pronunciation of Greek there
has led me to a dilemma that seems to fit not only the old either/either
controversy but your assertion about lack of competent authorities.
There were three main dialects; Attic-Ionic, Doric and Aeolic. Most of
the great surviving literature is in the first, but enough of the others
is extant to show the split.
There are also enough comedies of Aristophanes in which he sends up
non-Attic speech; especially the Doric of Sparta. I get the impression
that in that regular occurrence on a battle-field of two shield-walls
facing each other before one came rushing in, there was probably quite a
lot of "either/either" taunting shouted between the lines.
Ed- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hey Guys,

You wouldn't be Kvetching over Ktesiphon would you?

Thanks,
Andrew
B. T. Raven
2008-01-24 17:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andrew
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
Eduardus
Thinking about ancient Greece and proper pronunciation of Greek there
has led me to a dilemma that seems to fit not only the old either/either
controversy but your assertion about lack of competent authorities.
There were three main dialects; Attic-Ionic, Doric and Aeolic. Most of
the great surviving literature is in the first, but enough of the others
is extant to show the split.
There are also enough comedies of Aristophanes in which he sends up
non-Attic speech; especially the Doric of Sparta. I get the impression
that in that regular occurrence on a battle-field of two shield-walls
facing each other before one came rushing in, there was probably quite a
lot of "either/either" taunting shouted between the lines.
Ed- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hey Guys,
You wouldn't be Kvetching over Ktesiphon would you?
Thanks,
Andrew
Quatsching
Ed Cryer
2008-01-24 18:04:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
Eduardus
Thinking about ancient Greece and proper pronunciation of Greek there
has led me to a dilemma that seems to fit not only the old
either/either
controversy but your assertion about lack of competent authorities.
There were three main dialects; Attic-Ionic, Doric and Aeolic. Most of
the great surviving literature is in the first, but enough of the others
is extant to show the split.
There are also enough comedies of Aristophanes in which he sends up
non-Attic speech; especially the Doric of Sparta. I get the impression
that in that regular occurrence on a battle-field of two shield-walls
facing each other before one came rushing in, there was probably quite a
lot of "either/either" taunting shouted between the lines.
Ed- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hey Guys,

You wouldn't be Kvetching over Ktesiphon would you?

Thanks,
Andrew

*****

There was no "kv" sound in Greek; nor in Latin. Prehistoric Greek had a
digamma letter (sounded rather like a w) but it fell from use before
the classical period.

Ed
Will Parsons
2008-01-24 22:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What?! Have we slipped into a new dark ages?
Post by B. T. Raven
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not allowed by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
consonant only. So for:

CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]

The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z] at the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).

- Will
Ed Cryer
2008-01-24 23:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Parsons
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What?! Have we slipped into a new dark ages?
Post by B. T. Raven
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not allowed by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]
The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z] at the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).
- Will
I've always pronounced the G in Gnaius and the C in Cnut. Just as I've
always pronounced phthisis in full with the initial ph. In fact, for the
latter, the OED gives the phonetic pronunciation as " 'fθaisis" with "
'θaisis" as alternative. (NB the theta, viewable with a unicode font.)

So, where did you get this rule of yours? It is wrong.

Ed
B. T. Raven
2008-01-25 00:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Will Parsons
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kte´sifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What?! Have we slipped into a new dark ages?
Post by B. T. Raven
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not allowed by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]
The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z] at the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).
- Will
I've always pronounced the G in Gnaius and the C in Cnut. Just as I've
always pronounced phthisis in full with the initial ph. In fact, for the
latter, the OED gives the phonetic pronunciation as " 'fθaisis" with "
'θaisis" as alternative. (NB the theta, viewable with a unicode font.)
So, where did you get this rule of yours? It is wrong.
Ed
Also "tizis," at least in America. Gnu is both "noo" and "nyoo." To this
add Richard Stallman's G'noo with schwa between g and n, or just Gnu if
you can manage the alveolar tap (maybe something like the Bushman's
click). Paleontologists here usually pronounce names starting with Ct...
as St...

I think Will's rules are the result of a recent attempt to introduce
some order into the chaos. Of course the most reasonable (and most
painful) plan would be to pronounce ALL English words just as they are
spelled. This preserves much of the etymological information.

Basta (*eenookh)
Richard van Schaik
2008-01-25 00:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
I think Will's rules are the result of a recent attempt to introduce
some order into the chaos. Of course the most reasonable (and most
painful) plan would be to pronounce ALL English words just as they are
spelled. This preserves much of the etymological information.
Hmmm. Leicester-square fully?
--
Richard van Schaik
***@THISwanadoo.nl
http://www.fmavanschaik.nl/
Will Parsons
2008-01-25 01:18:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Will Parsons
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not allowed by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]
The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z] at the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).
I've always pronounced the G in Gnaius and the C in Cnut. Just as I've
always pronounced phthisis in full with the initial ph. In fact, for the
latter, the OED gives the phonetic pronunciation as " 'f?aisis" with "
'?aisis" as alternative. (NB the theta, viewable with a unicode font.)
Also "tizis," at least in America. Gnu is both "noo" and "nyoo." To this
add Richard Stallman's G'noo with schwa between g and n, or just Gnu if
Yes, the officially sanctioned pron. of GNU is with the [g], but I
haven't been able to bring myself to say it that way - despite the
ambiguity in saying "GNU (new?) software"!
Post by B. T. Raven
you can manage the alveolar tap (maybe something like the Bushman's
click). Paleontologists here usually pronounce names starting with Ct...
as St...
I think Will's rules are the result of a recent attempt to introduce
some order into the chaos.
On the contrary, the re-introduction of the initial consonant is more
likely to be a result of recent attempts to make the pronunciation fit
the spelling, I think.
Post by B. T. Raven
Of course the most reasonable (and most
painful) plan would be to pronounce ALL English words just as they are
spelled. This preserves much of the etymological information.
Unfortunately, this would be difficult to carry out consisently. The
"rule", as I have presented it, at least gives a consistent guide for
pronouncing these words. It's unlikely you would get everyone to
start pronouncing "psychology" &c. with an initial [p], e.g.

Interesting enough, although English is known for its often chaotic
spellings, classical names present a subsystem which are pretty
predictable in their pronunciations, subject to accent determination
based on classical Latin vowel length.

- Will
Will Parsons
2008-01-25 01:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Paleontologists here usually pronounce names starting with Ct...
as St...
Really? I find that quite surprising, since it is completely at odds
with the English spelling convention that C is only pronounced [s]
before E, I, or Y.

- Will
Will Parsons
2008-01-25 00:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Will Parsons
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not allowed by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]
The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z] at the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).
I've always pronounced the G in Gnaius and the C in Cnut. Just as I've
always pronounced phthisis in full with the initial ph. In fact, for the
latter, the OED gives the phonetic pronunciation as " 'f?aisis" with "
'?aisis" as alternative. (NB the theta, viewable with a unicode font.)
So, where did you get this rule of yours? It is wrong.
That's a bit strong. The "rule" is simply an abstraction of how these
words have been traditionally pronounced in English, and follows the
pattern of all languages to assimilate the pronunciation of foreign
words to their own phonological patterns. In the more common cases,
there is no dispute - words beginning "ps" and "pn" are regularly
pronounced with "p" silent. In cases which are less common, there may
be more of a tendency for "spelling pronunciations", and words beginning
"phth" would certainly fall into this category. I looked up your
"phthisis" in the Shorter OED, and it does indeed show it with an
optional initial [f]. OTOH, Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary
shows only the pronunciation with initial [th]. I know I would feel
funny saying "fthisis". Similarly, I would no sooner pronounce the G
in "Gnaius" than I would the one in "gnome".

"Cnut", however, is another matter. First, it is Scandinavian in
origin rather than Classical, and perhaps the fact that it is less
remote in time influences keeping the initial [k] - in fact the form
one used to see was "Canute", with a vowel added so that the initial
[k] could still be articulated.

(One more addition to the list of consonant combinations with only the
second pronounced: MN pronounced [n] at the beginning of a word.)

- WillI
Ed Cryer
2008-01-25 11:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Parsons
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Will Parsons
Post by carolus
te´sifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
There is fact a rule - for consonant combinations that are not
allowed
by
English syllable structure to commence the syllable, pronounce the second
CT, CHTH, CN, GN, PS, PT, PHTH, PN, BD
[t] [th] [n] [n] [s] [t] [th] [n] [d]
The exception is X (= CS), which is pronounced for some reason [z]
at
the
beginning of a word rather than [s] as we should expect from the general
pattern. (This has the advantage of dintinguishing in the
traditional
pronunciation the Greek letter PSI [sai] from XI [zai]).
I've always pronounced the G in Gnaius and the C in Cnut. Just as I've
always pronounced phthisis in full with the initial ph. In fact, for the
latter, the OED gives the phonetic pronunciation as " 'f?aisis" with "
'?aisis" as alternative. (NB the theta, viewable with a unicode font.)
So, where did you get this rule of yours? It is wrong.
That's a bit strong. The "rule" is simply an abstraction of how these
words have been traditionally pronounced in English, and follows the
pattern of all languages to assimilate the pronunciation of foreign
words to their own phonological patterns. In the more common cases,
there is no dispute - words beginning "ps" and "pn" are regularly
pronounced with "p" silent. In cases which are less common, there may
be more of a tendency for "spelling pronunciations", and words
beginning
"phth" would certainly fall into this category. I looked up your
"phthisis" in the Shorter OED, and it does indeed show it with an
optional initial [f]. OTOH, Webster's 3rd New International
Dictionary
shows only the pronunciation with initial [th]. I know I would feel
funny saying "fthisis". Similarly, I would no sooner pronounce the G
in "Gnaius" than I would the one in "gnome".
"Cnut", however, is another matter. First, it is Scandinavian in
origin rather than Classical, and perhaps the fact that it is less
remote in time influences keeping the initial [k] - in fact the form
one used to see was "Canute", with a vowel added so that the initial
[k] could still be articulated.
(One more addition to the list of consonant combinations with only the
second pronounced: MN pronounced [n] at the beginning of a word.)
- WillI
When I was a 10 year old in junior school here in the UK we had "reading
age" assessment weekly. Each one of us in the class was regularly
reviewed by the teacher. What we did was be called out to her desk and
stand alongside her, reading words from a reading list. "Phthisis" was
on it; quite near to the end, if not the end one itself. I got it wrong
first time, but always right thereafter; and I don't think I've ever met
the word in print since.

I think there's a kind of cultural divide between the UK and USA on not
only spelling but pronunciation. In the USA simplified spelling has
motivated simplified pronunciation. In the UK we cling to the spelling
of the language of origin; and this probably motivates maintaining their
pronunciation. Mind you we're caught between the devil and the deep blue
sea, with big Uncle Sam still such a powerful influence on us. These
days women buy cosmetics "because they're worth it" rather than because
they come from Parisienne haute couture.

It used to be very fashionable and chic to use French terms; and to
pronounce them à la française. German words are very popular among
philosophers, and, of course, you gain Brownie points for good
pronunciation. But this is on the wane. And in the USA they seem to
delight in pronouncing foreign words with as little foreignness as
possible; similarly to what they've done with English since kicking the
British out and going for the pursuit of "life, liberty and happiness".


Ed
Will Parsons
2008-01-25 16:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
When I was a 10 year old in junior school here in the UK we had "reading
age" assessment weekly. Each one of us in the class was regularly
reviewed by the teacher. What we did was be called out to her desk and
stand alongside her, reading words from a reading list. "Phthisis" was
on it; quite near to the end, if not the end one itself. I got it wrong
first time, but always right thereafter; and I don't think I've ever met
the word in print since.
It seems a bit cruel to expect a 10-year old to know "phthisis". It's
not the sort of word one can work into everday conversation. And if you
did, what expectation could you have that your listener(s) would recognize
and understand the word?
Post by Ed Cryer
I think there's a kind of cultural divide between the UK and USA on not
only spelling but pronunciation. In the USA simplified spelling has
motivated simplified pronunciation.
I don't think so; I believe Noah Webster was motivated by desire to bring
spelling more in line with existing pronunciation in his efforts in
simplifing spellings.
Post by Ed Cryer
In the UK we cling to the spelling
of the language of origin; and this probably motivates maintaining their
pronunciation. Mind you we're caught between the devil and the deep blue
sea, with big Uncle Sam still such a powerful influence on us. These
days women buy cosmetics "because they're worth it" rather than because
they come from Parisienne haute couture.
It used to be very fashionable and chic to use French terms; and to
pronounce them à la française. German words are very popular among
philosophers, and, of course, you gain Brownie points for good
pronunciation. But this is on the wane. And in the USA they seem to
delight in pronouncing foreign words with as little foreignness as
possible; similarly to what they've done with English since kicking the
British out and going for the pursuit of "life, liberty and happiness".
I'm not so sure about that - after all, in the US "garage" is pronounced
in the "French" manner, as opposed to the British "garridge".

- Will
John W. Kennedy
2008-01-26 00:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Parsons
I'm not so sure about that - after all, in the US "garage" is pronounced
in the "French" manner, as opposed to the British "garridge".
In "Busman's Honeymoon", Sayers treats the French pronunciation as a
genteelism.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins
Caligula
2008-01-26 06:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Will Parsons
I'm not so sure about that - after all, in the US "garage" is pronounced
in the "French" manner, as opposed to the British "garridge".
Ce serait étonnant que les Américains prononçassent "garage" à la manière
des Français.

En Français. Les 2 "a" on même prononciation. L'accent tonique est sur le
second "a".
Le "r" français vient de la gorge, il n'est n'est pas roulé.

Phonétique : Garaj.
--
Caligula
Will Parsons
2008-01-26 15:39:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caligula
Post by Will Parsons
I'm not so sure about that - after all, in the US "garage" is pronounced
in the "French" manner, as opposed to the British "garridge".
Ce serait étonnant que les Américains prononçassent "garage" à la manière
des Français.
En Français. Les 2 "a" on même prononciation. L'accent tonique est sur le
second "a".
Le "r" français vient de la gorge, il n'est n'est pas roulé.
Phonétique : Garaj.
I did not mean to imply the American-English pronunciation of "garage" is
the same as it would be in French (that why I put "French" in quotes).
After all, French and English differ in their phonetics - as you note, the
French "r" is quite distinct from its pronunciation in any variety of
English. Nevertheless, "garage" as pronounced in the US represents the
closest to the French pronunciation that fits into the American-English
phonetic system. The accent on the second "a", and the pronunciation of
the second "g" as in French distinguish it from the British pronunciation
in this regard.

- Will
John W. Kennedy
2008-01-26 00:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
the pursuit of "life, liberty and happiness".
That's "[the right to] life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
--
John W. Kennedy
"Information is light. Information, in itself, about anything, is light."
-- Tom Stoppard. "Night and Day"
Alan Jones
2008-01-26 16:27:31 UTC
Permalink
teŽsifon!
regards
Örjan Rudstedt
kteŽsifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter since
there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
NSOED doesn't list "ctesiphon", but it does have several scientific names
and terms from Gk "ktenidion", all shown as pronounced with initial "t", the
"c" being silent.

Alan Jones
Ed Cryer
2008-01-26 17:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Jones
Post by B. T. Raven
tesifon!
regards
rjan Rudstedt
ktesifon
In English it might be tesifon or stesifon but it doesn't matter
since there are no longer any competent authorities on the subject of
English pronunciation. So, say ktesifon in English too.
Good question. Not off topic.
NSOED doesn't list "ctesiphon", but it does have several scientific
names and terms from Gk "ktenidion", all shown as pronounced with
initial "t", the "c" being silent.
Alan Jones
Ctesiphon was also an ancient city of Persia. According to this site the
C is silent;
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-21617779.html

Ed

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