Marc Antony vs Octavian Inscription

[Poetic Justice]

I'm aware of the rivalry for power going on when Antony erected this
statue.

I could get a word translation easily enough but a Latin speaker could
possibly put the words and intent into layman's term for me ("parenti
optime merito" & contio).

"It should be noted that Antony continued to challenge Octavian's
legitimacy, in particular by erecting a statue of Caesar on the Rostra
with the inscription, "parenti optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually had to reaffirm his, in
particular in his contio in November, 44, when he swore an oath on
Caesar's statue (Cic. Att. 15.28.4)." Regards, Walter



..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Poetic Justice
I'm aware of the rivalry for power going on when Antony erected this
statue.
I could get a word translation easily enough but a Latin speaker could
possibly put the words and intent into layman's term for me ("parenti
optime merito"& contio).
"It should be noted that Antony continued to challenge Octavian's
legitimacy, in particular by erecting a statue of Caesar on the Rostra
with the inscription, "parenti optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually had to reaffirm his, in
particular in his contio in November, 44, when he swore an oath on
Caesar's statue (Cic. Att. 15.28.4)." Regards, Walter
..And Paradise Was Lost...like teardrops in the rain...

Hello again. I hope you're well.

"The fourth quatuorvir of Caesar's mint, Cossutius Maridianus, has
commemorated by this silver coin, struck in the fatal year above alluded
to, 710 (44 BC), the honourable appellation of Parens Patriae, which
Julius found conferred upon him after his victory in Spain, as is
recorded by Dion (xliv sec 4), Appian (Bell. Civ. ii ch. 106) and
Suetonius (ch. 76). It was continued even after his death, for Suetonius
informs us, that "where he had been assassinated, the people erected in
the forum a solid statue of Numidian marble, nearly
twenty feet high, and inscribed on it the words PARENTI PATRIAE." The
same fact is related bu Cicero, but attributed by him to Antony; "Your
friend (Antony) aggravates daily the popular fury; in the first place,
he has inscribed on the statue which he erected in the rostra, PARENTI
OPTIME MERITO." (Ad Familiares, L, xii ep. 3). And it was on account of
this appelation, that his murderers were always invidiously called
paricidae, and the ides of March, the day on which he was slain,
paricidium. Eckhel, vi p. 17."
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/numiswiki/view.asp?key=caesar

To the parent of the fatherland. To a parent deserving the best.


A "contio" was a contraction of "conventio"; sometimes meaning the
speech delivered, sometimes just the tribunal itself.
Generals delivered "contiones" to their assembled troops; tribunes to
the assembled people. It carries (at least for conservatives like
Cicero) a bad connotation; something in the order of rabble-rousing.
Cicero himself delivered "orationes"; even when hurling vile invective
and calumny at his political enemies.

Ed

P.S. It says above that Suetonius said "where he had been assassinated".
I've looked at the relevant passage and he doesn't say that at all. But
a few paragraphs later he writes "Curiam, in qua occisus est,"; the
Senate-house in which he was killed".

[Poetic Justice]

Post by Poetic Justice
"It should be noted that Antony continued
to challenge Octavian's legitimacy, in
particular by erecting a statue of Caesar
on the Rostra with the inscription, "parenti
optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually
had to reaffirm his, in particular in his
contio in November, 44, when he swore
an oath on Caesar's statue (Cic. Att.
15.28.4)."

Ed Cryer wrote and cited;

Post by Poetic Justice
Hello again. I hope you're well.

Hi Ed...And Thanks once again and hope you're well also.

Post by Poetic Justice
"[snip]...Suetonius informs us, that "where
he had been assassinated, the people
erected in the forum a solid statue of
Numidian marble, nearly twenty feet high,
and inscribed on it the words PARENTI
PATRIAE.]"

{Jumping down to your p.s.}

Post by Poetic Justice
P.S. It says above that Suetonius said
"where he had been assassinated".
I've looked at the relevant passage and he
doesn't say that at all.
But a few paragraphs later he writes
"Curiam, in qua occisus est,"; the
Senate-house in which he was killed".

And the Curia Pompey where the assassination took place is well over
1km away from this location.

I've read worst scenarios for that column and have overheard some really
tall tales from tourguides when they are at the Temple of Caesar telling
the assassination/funeral story:).

One book on the Forum excavations (late-1890's) claimed they had found
that column's fragments *and* JC's ashes in front of the Temple of
Caesar:-).

[Samuel Ball Platner; Topographical Dictionary of Ancient Rome, London:
Oxford University Press, 1929. Iulius, Divus, AEDES;]

"The body of Caesar was burnt at the east end of the forum, in front of
the Regia (Liv. ep.=A0116; Plut. Caes.=A068), and here an altar was at
once erected (App.=A0BC=A0I.4; II.148; III.2), and a column of Numidian
marble twenty feet high inscribed Parenti Patriae (Suet.=A0Caes.=A085).
Column and altar were soon removed by Dolabella (Cic. ad=A0Att. XIV.15;
Phil. I.5), and it was on this site that the temple was afterwards built
(App. locc.=A0citt.; Cass.=A0Dio=A0XLVII.18)".

Post by Poetic Justice
The same fact is related by Cicero, but
attributed by him to Antony; "Your friend
(Antony) aggravates daily the popular
fury; in the first place, he has inscribed on
the statue which he erected in the rostra,
PARENTI OPTIME MERITO."

With your translation "To a parent deserving the best" and this
reference;

"It should be noted that Antony continued to challenge Octavian's
legitimacy, in particular by erecting a statue of Caesar on the Rostra
with the inscription, "parenti optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually had to reaffirm his, in
particular in his contio in November, 44, when he swore an oath on
Caesar's statue (Cic. Att. 15.28.4)."

I now know what Marc Antony's 'intent' was and he was good!

Like before the funeral he had somehow taken posession Caesar's Will
from the Vestal Virgins.

Caesar Willed money to the Plebs and gave them his estate (I believe
just on the otherside of the Tiber River) to be used as a public park.

At the funeral the assassins and the anti-Caesar factions believe
everything is fine because a Peace deal has been secured.

Then Antony gives his Will speech and gets the Plebs with the money and
land gift over to Caesar's side and then holds-up Caesar's bood soaked
toga...the Plebs riot and want revenge!


So when the crowds in the Forum see this macho statue of a great leader
and victorious General inscribed with "To a parent deserving the best"
and standing beside it a weak skinny 19yr as heir to this man's Power
taking an oath???
=A0Antony certainly gets his point across with that mental picture!

Post by Poetic Justice
(Ad Familiares, L, xii ep. 3). And it was on
account of this appelation, that his
murderers were always invidiously called
paricidae, and the ides of March, the day
on which he was slain, paricidium. Eckhel,
vi p. 17."

=A0=A0Also the Curia Pompey was closed-up and the Roman Senate was never
again to convene on the 'Ides of March'.
=A0=A0I wonder if that tradition is still in place?

And thanks for the 'contio' explaination.
Regards, Walter

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Poetic Justice

Post by Poetic Justice
"It should be noted that Antony continued
to challenge Octavian's legitimacy, in
particular by erecting a statue of Caesar
on the Rostra with the inscription, "parenti
optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually
had to reaffirm his, in particular in his
contio in November, 44, when he swore
an oath on Caesar's statue (Cic. Att.
15.28.4)."

Ed Cryer wrote and cited;

Post by Poetic Justice
Hello again. I hope you're well.

Hi Ed...And Thanks once again and hope you're well also.

Post by Poetic Justice
"[snip]...Suetonius informs us, that "where
he had been assassinated, the people
erected in the forum a solid statue of
Numidian marble, nearly twenty feet high,
and inscribed on it the words PARENTI
PATRIAE.]"

{Jumping down to your p.s.}

Post by Poetic Justice
P.S. It says above that Suetonius said
"where he had been assassinated".
I've looked at the relevant passage and he
doesn't say that at all.
But a few paragraphs later he writes
"Curiam, in qua occisus est,"; the
Senate-house in which he was killed".

And the Curia Pompey where the assassination took place is well over
1km away from this location.
I've read worst scenarios for that column and have overheard some really
tall tales from tourguides when they are at the Temple of Caesar telling
the assassination/funeral story:).
One book on the Forum excavations (late-1890's) claimed they had found
that column's fragments *and* JC's ashes in front of the Temple of
Caesar:-).
Oxford University Press, 1929. Iulius, Divus, AEDES;]
"The body of Caesar was burnt at the east end of the forum, in front of
the Regia (Liv. ep. 116; Plut. Caes. 68), and here an altar was at
once erected (App. BC I.4; II.148; III.2), and a column of Numidian
marble twenty feet high inscribed Parenti Patriae (Suet. Caes. 85).
Column and altar were soon removed by Dolabella (Cic. ad Att. XIV.15;
Phil. I.5), and it was on this site that the temple was afterwards built
(App. locc. citt.; Cass. Dio XLVII.18)".

Post by Poetic Justice
The same fact is related by Cicero, but
attributed by him to Antony; "Your friend
(Antony) aggravates daily the popular
fury; in the first place, he has inscribed on
the statue which he erected in the rostra,
PARENTI OPTIME MERITO."

With your translation "To a parent deserving the best" and this
reference;
"It should be noted that Antony continued to challenge Octavian's
legitimacy, in particular by erecting a statue of Caesar on the Rostra
with the inscription, "parenti optime merito" (Cic. Fam. 12.3.1, dated 2
October, 44), and Octavian continually had to reaffirm his, in
particular in his contio in November, 44, when he swore an oath on
Caesar's statue (Cic. Att. 15.28.4)."
I now know what Marc Antony's 'intent' was and he was good!
Like before the funeral he had somehow taken posession Caesar's Will
from the Vestal Virgins.
Caesar Willed money to the Plebs and gave them his estate (I believe
just on the otherside of the Tiber River) to be used as a public park.
At the funeral the assassins and the anti-Caesar factions believe
everything is fine because a Peace deal has been secured.
Then Antony gives his Will speech and gets the Plebs with the money and
land gift over to Caesar's side and then holds-up Caesar's bood soaked
toga...the Plebs riot and want revenge!
So when the crowds in the Forum see this macho statue of a great leader
and victorious General inscribed with "To a parent deserving the best"
and standing beside it a weak skinny 19yr as heir to this man's Power
taking an oath???
Antony certainly gets his point across with that mental picture!

Post by Poetic Justice
(Ad Familiares, L, xii ep. 3). And it was on
account of this appelation, that his
murderers were always invidiously called
paricidae, and the ides of March, the day
on which he was slain, paricidium. Eckhel,
vi p. 17."

Also the Curia Pompey was closed-up and the Roman Senate was never
again to convene on the 'Ides of March'.
I wonder if that tradition is still in place?
And thanks for the 'contio' explaination.
Regards, Walter

"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is probably just about the best "contio"
ever written. It's the sort of thing that any tribunus plebis would have
given his right arm to have delivered. Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric ruled in Republican Rome, I can
tell you that various forms of veto had far more power. A tribune had
the right to veto outright; whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices and auguries, and postpone the
day's business.

The power of a tribunus plebis was so great that Cicero's worst
nightmare enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of the very top patrician
gentes, the Claudii) renounced his patrician status, got adopted into a
plebeian family and changed his name. Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in Rome, passing lots of laws and
leading gangs of thugs around. He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Ed

[Poetic Justice]

Ed Cryer wrote;

Post by Ed Cryer
"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is
probably just about the best "contio" ever
written.
It's the sort of thing that any tribunus
plebis would have given his right arm to
have delivered.
Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

But if Cassius Dio is correct I think the ending of Marc Antony's
speech scored a '10' on the Rabble-rousing meter:-) especially if he by
other accounts held-up Caesar's shredded and blood soaked toga at the
end?

"Of what avail, O Caesar, was your humanity, of what avail your
inviolability, of what avail the laws?

Nay, though you enacted many laws that men might not be killed by their
personal foes, yet how mercilessly you yourself were slain by your
friends!

And now, the victim of assassination, you lie dead in the Forum through
which you often led the triumph crowned; wounded to death, you have been
cast down upon the rostra from which you often addressed the people.

Woe for the blood-bespattered locks of gray, alas for the rent robe,
which you assumed, it seems, only that you might be slain in it!"

Post by Ed Cryer
Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric
ruled in Republican Rome, I can tell you
that various forms of veto had far more
power.
A tribune had the right to veto outright;
whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices
and auguries, and postpone the day's
business.

Thanks, I knew that the priests did their entrails-thing at the
beginning of the Senate meetings but didn't know the Consul could
interpret it for political gain if he choose too.

IIRC in HBO's Rome Caesar bribes/bullies the Temple of Jupiter's priests
for a favorable auspice, I wonder how common place that was if true?

Post by Ed Cryer
The power of a tribunus plebis was so
great that Cicero's worst nightmare
enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of
the very top patrician gentes, the Claudii)
renounced his patrician status, got
adopted into a plebeian family and
changed his name.

You think next-door neighbors would get along better:-).

This is one of my many imagination sites in the Roman Forum, meaning
nothing visible survives at that location but there is a story there.

You have Julius Caesar living in the Domus Publica, adjacent to him is
Cicero's house on the lower slopes of the Palatine Hill and just above
Cicero is Clodius' house.

And Cicero's threat 'was to add more stories to his house in order to
block-out from Clodius the sight of the city he had sought to destroy'.

In the photo below those houses would have been somewhere to the left of
where the photographer is standing (the Domus Publica's location is
known though).

Post by Ed Cryer
Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in
Rome, passing lots of laws and leading
gangs of thugs around.
He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Visible remains of his last house he purchased the year before his death
survives in the Roman Forum***.
In this house he would have been waked.
Mostly the reburied basement survives with ~50 slave cells, other
rooms, a household shrine and a Bath but a small section of the
groundfloor structure is intact under a metal protective roof (photo).
Loading Image...

The house's buried remains are to the left of the visible structure and
down roughly in the photo (~35x33m), in the upper right corner was the
main entrance on the Via.

With the groundfloor's floor slightly below covering of protective
soil, you are in the House when you are there...just turn-on the
imagination and picture Clodius meeting with his friends, gang and
clients and the crowds gathered around the house after the murder.

***The 'Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma' guidebook ID's this house
as the elegant 'House of Marcus Aemilius Scaurus' that was sold to
Publius Clodius in 53 BC for 15M sesterces.
Regards, Walter

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Poetic Justice
Ed Cryer wrote;

Post by Ed Cryer
"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is
probably just about the best "contio" ever
written.
It's the sort of thing that any tribunus
plebis would have given his right arm to
have delivered.
Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

But if Cassius Dio is correct I think the ending of Marc Antony's
speech scored a '10' on the Rabble-rousing meter:-) especially if he by
other accounts held-up Caesar's shredded and blood soaked toga at the
end?
"Of what avail, O Caesar, was your humanity, of what avail your
inviolability, of what avail the laws?
Nay, though you enacted many laws that men might not be killed by their
personal foes, yet how mercilessly you yourself were slain by your
friends!
And now, the victim of assassination, you lie dead in the Forum through
which you often led the triumph crowned; wounded to death, you have been
cast down upon the rostra from which you often addressed the people.
Woe for the blood-bespattered locks of gray, alas for the rent robe,
which you assumed, it seems, only that you might be slain in it!"

Post by Ed Cryer
Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric
ruled in Republican Rome, I can tell you
that various forms of veto had far more
power.
A tribune had the right to veto outright;
whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices
and auguries, and postpone the day's
business.

Thanks, I knew that the priests did their entrails-thing at the
beginning of the Senate meetings but didn't know the Consul could
interpret it for political gain if he choose too.
IIRC in HBO's Rome Caesar bribes/bullies the Temple of Jupiter's priests
for a favorable auspice, I wonder how common place that was if true?

Post by Ed Cryer
The power of a tribunus plebis was so
great that Cicero's worst nightmare
enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of
the very top patrician gentes, the Claudii)
renounced his patrician status, got
adopted into a plebeian family and
changed his name.

You think next-door neighbors would get along better:-).
This is one of my many imagination sites in the Roman Forum, meaning
nothing visible survives at that location but there is a story there.
You have Julius Caesar living in the Domus Publica, adjacent to him is
Cicero's house on the lower slopes of the Palatine Hill and just above
Cicero is Clodius' house.
And Cicero's threat 'was to add more stories to his house in order to
block-out from Clodius the sight of the city he had sought to destroy'.
In the photo below those houses would have been somewhere to the left of
where the photographer is standing (the Domus Publica's location is
known though).

Post by Ed Cryer
Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in
Rome, passing lots of laws and leading
gangs of thugs around.
He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Visible remains of his last house he purchased the year before his death
survives in the Roman Forum***.
In this house he would have been waked.
Mostly the reburied basement survives with ~50 slave cells, other
rooms, a household shrine and a Bath but a small section of the
groundfloor structure is intact under a metal protective roof (photo).
http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/black/forum_rom/ab662226.jpg
The house's buried remains are to the left of the visible structure and
down roughly in the photo (~35x33m), in the upper right corner was the
main entrance on the Via.
With the groundfloor's floor slightly below covering of protective
soil, you are in the House when you are there...just turn-on the
imagination and picture Clodius meeting with his friends, gang and
clients and the crowds gathered around the house after the murder.
***The 'Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma' guidebook ID's this house
as the elegant 'House of Marcus Aemilius Scaurus' that was sold to
Publius Clodius in 53 BC for 15M sesterces.
Regards, Walter

So then, Marc Antony really could deliver a contio! That Dio Cassius
stuff sounds better than what Marlon Brando did here;

Senior Roman magistrates could declare evil omens even if they'd merely
seen a lightning flash on the left on the way into work. And then they
could postpone business and "watch the heavens" (de caelo servare" in
the language of augury; a term that Cicero uses).

Ed

P.S. The way Shakespeare plays off "ambitious" against "honourable" in
the Antony speech is highly rhetorical, but I guess it would only move
the crowd with a corpse present.

P.P.S. I've always thought that "ambition" must have undergone some
meaning shift since Shakespeare's day. When you consider just what
Caesar actually achieved, how the dickens could you fail to suspect a
little of what we'd call "ambition" today? He got to the top in every
field he entered; bestriding the world like a colossus. Top general and
conqueror, top administrator and innovator, top writer, top orator (even
Cicero confessed himself very moved by the man's presence, so much so
that he just kind of stood aside for him (something he didn't do for
Antony, calling him a drunken yob)).
Imagine a gang of conspirators doing Isaac Newton in, and then defending
their "act of liberty" as justified by the fact that no one else could
get a word in with him around!

[John W Kennedy]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Poetic Justice
Ed Cryer wrote;

Post by Ed Cryer
"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is
probably just about the best "contio" ever
written.
It's the sort of thing that any tribunus
plebis would have given his right arm to
have delivered.
Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

But if Cassius Dio is correct I think the ending of Marc Antony's
speech scored a '10' on the Rabble-rousing meter:-) especially if he by
other accounts held-up Caesar's shredded and blood soaked toga at the
end?
"Of what avail, O Caesar, was your humanity, of what avail your
inviolability, of what avail the laws?
Nay, though you enacted many laws that men might not be killed by their
personal foes, yet how mercilessly you yourself were slain by your
friends!
And now, the victim of assassination, you lie dead in the Forum through
which you often led the triumph crowned; wounded to death, you have been
cast down upon the rostra from which you often addressed the people.
Woe for the blood-bespattered locks of gray, alas for the rent robe,
which you assumed, it seems, only that you might be slain in it!"

Post by Ed Cryer
Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric
ruled in Republican Rome, I can tell you
that various forms of veto had far more
power.
A tribune had the right to veto outright;
whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices
and auguries, and postpone the day's
business.

Thanks, I knew that the priests did their entrails-thing at the
beginning of the Senate meetings but didn't know the Consul could
interpret it for political gain if he choose too.
IIRC in HBO's Rome Caesar bribes/bullies the Temple of Jupiter's priests
for a favorable auspice, I wonder how common place that was if true?

Post by Ed Cryer
The power of a tribunus plebis was so
great that Cicero's worst nightmare
enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of
the very top patrician gentes, the Claudii)
renounced his patrician status, got
adopted into a plebeian family and
changed his name.

You think next-door neighbors would get along better:-).
This is one of my many imagination sites in the Roman Forum, meaning
nothing visible survives at that location but there is a story there.
You have Julius Caesar living in the Domus Publica, adjacent to him is
Cicero's house on the lower slopes of the Palatine Hill and just above
Cicero is Clodius' house.
And Cicero's threat 'was to add more stories to his house in order to
block-out from Clodius the sight of the city he had sought to destroy'.
In the photo below those houses would have been somewhere to the left of
where the photographer is standing (the Domus Publica's location is
known though).

Post by Ed Cryer
Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in
Rome, passing lots of laws and leading
gangs of thugs around.
He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Visible remains of his last house he purchased the year before his death
survives in the Roman Forum***.
In this house he would have been waked.
Mostly the reburied basement survives with ~50 slave cells, other
rooms, a household shrine and a Bath but a small section of the
groundfloor structure is intact under a metal protective roof (photo).
http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/black/forum_rom/ab662226.jpg
The house's buried remains are to the left of the visible structure and
down roughly in the photo (~35x33m), in the upper right corner was the
main entrance on the Via.
With the groundfloor's floor slightly below covering of protective
soil, you are in the House when you are there...just turn-on the
imagination and picture Clodius meeting with his friends, gang and
clients and the crowds gathered around the house after the murder.
***The 'Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma' guidebook ID's this house
as the elegant 'House of Marcus Aemilius Scaurus' that was sold to
Publius Clodius in 53 BC for 15M sesterces.
Regards, Walter

So then, Marc Antony really could deliver a contio! That Dio Cassius
stuff sounds better than what Marlon Brando did here;
http://youtu.be/t1VkK86Sdmo
Senior Roman magistrates could declare evil omens even if they'd merely
seen a lightning flash on the left on the way into work. And then they
could postpone business and "watch the heavens" (de caelo servare" in
the language of augury; a term that Cicero uses).
Ed
P.S. The way Shakespeare plays off "ambitious" against "honourable" in
the Antony speech is highly rhetorical, but I guess it would only move
the crowd with a corpse present.
P.P.S. I've always thought that "ambition" must have undergone some
meaning shift since Shakespeare's day. When you consider just what
Caesar actually achieved, how the dickens could you fail to suspect a
little of what we'd call "ambition" today? He got to the top in every
field he entered; bestriding the world like a colossus. Top general and
conqueror, top administrator and innovator, top writer, top orator
(even Cicero confessed himself very moved by the man's presence, so
much so that he just kind of stood aside for him (something he didn't
do for Antony, calling him a drunken yob)).
Imagine a gang of conspirators doing Isaac Newton in, and then
defending their "act of liberty" as justified by the fact that no one
else could get a word in with him around!

The root meaning of "ambitious", which Shakespeare was very possibly
aware of, is "[walking around and] electioneering". Since Shakespeare
was already Dictator for Life /and/ Pontifex Maximus, there was only
one office left to be running for, and that was anathema to Romans.

[B. T. Raven]

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Poetic Justice
Ed Cryer wrote;

Post by Ed Cryer
"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is
probably just about the best "contio" ever
written.
It's the sort of thing that any tribunus
plebis would have given his right arm to
have delivered.
Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

But if Cassius Dio is correct I think the ending of Marc Antony's
speech scored a '10' on the Rabble-rousing meter:-) especially if he by
other accounts held-up Caesar's shredded and blood soaked toga at the
end?
"Of what avail, O Caesar, was your humanity, of what avail your
inviolability, of what avail the laws?
Nay, though you enacted many laws that men might not be killed by their
personal foes, yet how mercilessly you yourself were slain by your
friends!
And now, the victim of assassination, you lie dead in the Forum through
which you often led the triumph crowned; wounded to death, you have been
cast down upon the rostra from which you often addressed the people.
Woe for the blood-bespattered locks of gray, alas for the rent robe,
which you assumed, it seems, only that you might be slain in it!"

Post by Ed Cryer
Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric
ruled in Republican Rome, I can tell you
that various forms of veto had far more
power.
A tribune had the right to veto outright;
whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices
and auguries, and postpone the day's
business.

Thanks, I knew that the priests did their entrails-thing at the
beginning of the Senate meetings but didn't know the Consul could
interpret it for political gain if he choose too.
IIRC in HBO's Rome Caesar bribes/bullies the Temple of Jupiter's priests
for a favorable auspice, I wonder how common place that was if true?

Post by Ed Cryer
The power of a tribunus plebis was so
great that Cicero's worst nightmare
enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of
the very top patrician gentes, the Claudii)
renounced his patrician status, got
adopted into a plebeian family and
changed his name.

You think next-door neighbors would get along better:-).
This is one of my many imagination sites in the Roman Forum, meaning
nothing visible survives at that location but there is a story there.
You have Julius Caesar living in the Domus Publica, adjacent to him is
Cicero's house on the lower slopes of the Palatine Hill and just above
Cicero is Clodius' house.
And Cicero's threat 'was to add more stories to his house in order to
block-out from Clodius the sight of the city he had sought to destroy'.
In the photo below those houses would have been somewhere to the left of
where the photographer is standing (the Domus Publica's location is
known though).

Post by Ed Cryer
Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in
Rome, passing lots of laws and leading
gangs of thugs around.
He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Visible remains of his last house he purchased the year before his death
survives in the Roman Forum***.
In this house he would have been waked.
Mostly the reburied basement survives with ~50 slave cells, other
rooms, a household shrine and a Bath but a small section of the
groundfloor structure is intact under a metal protective roof (photo).
http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/black/forum_rom/ab662226.jpg
The house's buried remains are to the left of the visible structure and
down roughly in the photo (~35x33m), in the upper right corner was the
main entrance on the Via.
With the groundfloor's floor slightly below covering of protective
soil, you are in the House when you are there...just turn-on the
imagination and picture Clodius meeting with his friends, gang and
clients and the crowds gathered around the house after the murder.
***The 'Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma' guidebook ID's this house
as the elegant 'House of Marcus Aemilius Scaurus' that was sold to
Publius Clodius in 53 BC for 15M sesterces.
Regards, Walter

So then, Marc Antony really could deliver a contio! That Dio Cassius
stuff sounds better than what Marlon Brando did here;
http://youtu.be/t1VkK86Sdmo
Senior Roman magistrates could declare evil omens even if they'd
merely seen a lightning flash on the left on the way into work. And
then they could postpone business and "watch the heavens" (de caelo
servare" in the language of augury; a term that Cicero uses).
Ed
P.S. The way Shakespeare plays off "ambitious" against "honourable" in
the Antony speech is highly rhetorical, but I guess it would only move
the crowd with a corpse present.
P.P.S. I've always thought that "ambition" must have undergone some
meaning shift since Shakespeare's day. When you consider just what
Caesar actually achieved, how the dickens could you fail to suspect a
little of what we'd call "ambition" today? He got to the top in every
field he entered; bestriding the world like a colossus. Top general
and conqueror, top administrator and innovator, top writer, top orator
(even Cicero confessed himself very moved by the man's presence, so
much so that he just kind of stood aside for him (something he didn't
do for Antony, calling him a drunken yob)).
Imagine a gang of conspirators doing Isaac Newton in, and then
defending their "act of liberty" as justified by the fact that no one
else could get a word in with him around!

The root meaning of "ambitious", which Shakespeare was very possibly
aware of, is "[walking around and] electioneering". Since Shakespeare
was already Dictator for Life /and/ Pontifex Maximus, there was only one
office left to be running for, and that was anathema to Romans.

Don't let Ann Hathaway hear about that. (Not referring to the stunningly
beautiful actress of the same name).

Eduardus

[John W Kennedy]

Post by B. T. Raven

Post by John W Kennedy

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Poetic Justice
Ed Cryer wrote;

Post by Ed Cryer
"Friends, Romans, countrymen" is
probably just about the best "contio" ever
written.
It's the sort of thing that any tribunus
plebis would have given his right arm to
have delivered.
Rabble-rousing at its zenith!

But if Cassius Dio is correct I think the ending of Marc Antony's
speech scored a '10' on the Rabble-rousing meter:-) especially if he by
other accounts held-up Caesar's shredded and blood soaked toga at the
end?
"Of what avail, O Caesar, was your humanity, of what avail your
inviolability, of what avail the laws?
Nay, though you enacted many laws that men might not be killed by their
personal foes, yet how mercilessly you yourself were slain by your
friends!
And now, the victim of assassination, you lie dead in the Forum through
which you often led the triumph crowned; wounded to death, you have been
cast down upon the rostra from which you often addressed the people.
Woe for the blood-bespattered locks of gray, alas for the rent robe,
which you assumed, it seems, only that you might be slain in it!"

Post by Ed Cryer
Contrary to popular belief that rhetoric
ruled in Republican Rome, I can tell you
that various forms of veto had far more
power.
A tribune had the right to veto outright;
whereas a consul had the right to declare
unfavourable omens in the taken auspices
and auguries, and postpone the day's
business.

Thanks, I knew that the priests did their entrails-thing at the
beginning of the Senate meetings but didn't know the Consul could
interpret it for political gain if he choose too.
IIRC in HBO's Rome Caesar bribes/bullies the Temple of Jupiter's priests
for a favorable auspice, I wonder how common place that was if true?

Post by Ed Cryer
The power of a tribunus plebis was so
great that Cicero's worst nightmare
enemy Publius Clodius (born into one of
the very top patrician gentes, the Claudii)
renounced his patrician status, got
adopted into a plebeian family and
changed his name.

You think next-door neighbors would get along better:-).
This is one of my many imagination sites in the Roman Forum, meaning
nothing visible survives at that location but there is a story there.
You have Julius Caesar living in the Domus Publica, adjacent to him is
Cicero's house on the lower slopes of the Palatine Hill and just above
Cicero is Clodius' house.
And Cicero's threat 'was to add more stories to his house in order to
block-out from Clodius the sight of the city he had sought to destroy'.
In the photo below those houses would have been somewhere to the left of
where the photographer is standing (the Domus Publica's location is
known though).

Post by Ed Cryer
Elected as tribune he organized
something like a communist uprising in
Rome, passing lots of laws and leading
gangs of thugs around.
He finally got killed by a
conservative-organized gang.

Visible remains of his last house he purchased the year before his death
survives in the Roman Forum***.
In this house he would have been waked.
Mostly the reburied basement survives with ~50 slave cells, other
rooms, a household shrine and a Bath but a small section of the
groundfloor structure is intact under a metal protective roof (photo).
http://wings.buffalo.edu/AandL/Maecenas/black/forum_rom/ab662226.jpg
The house's buried remains are to the left of the visible structure and
down roughly in the photo (~35x33m), in the upper right corner was the
main entrance on the Via.
With the groundfloor's floor slightly below covering of protective
soil, you are in the House when you are there...just turn-on the
imagination and picture Clodius meeting with his friends, gang and
clients and the crowds gathered around the house after the murder.
***The 'Soprintendenza Archeologica di Roma' guidebook ID's this house
as the elegant 'House of Marcus Aemilius Scaurus' that was sold to
Publius Clodius in 53 BC for 15M sesterces.
Regards, Walter

So then, Marc Antony really could deliver a contio! That Dio Cassius
stuff sounds better than what Marlon Brando did here;
http://youtu.be/t1VkK86Sdmo
Senior Roman magistrates could declare evil omens even if they'd
merely seen a lightning flash on the left on the way into work. And
then they could postpone business and "watch the heavens" (de caelo
servare" in the language of augury; a term that Cicero uses).
Ed
P.S. The way Shakespeare plays off "ambitious" against "honourable" in
the Antony speech is highly rhetorical, but I guess it would only move
the crowd with a corpse present.
P.P.S. I've always thought that "ambition" must have undergone some
meaning shift since Shakespeare's day. When you consider just what
Caesar actually achieved, how the dickens could you fail to suspect a
little of what we'd call "ambition" today? He got to the top in every
field he entered; bestriding the world like a colossus. Top general
and conqueror, top administrator and innovator, top writer, top orator
(even Cicero confessed himself very moved by the man's presence, so
much so that he just kind of stood aside for him (something he didn't
do for Antony, calling him a drunken yob)).
Imagine a gang of conspirators doing Isaac Newton in, and then
defending their "act of liberty" as justified by the fact that no one
else could get a word in with him around!

The root meaning of "ambitious", which Shakespeare was very possibly
aware of, is "[walking around and] electioneering". Since Shakespeare
was already Dictator for Life /and/ Pontifex Maximus, there was only one
office left to be running for, and that was anathema to Romans.

Don't let Ann Hathaway hear about that. (Not referring to the stunningly
beautiful actress of the same name).

Sorry. I had just been dealing with some massive Shakespeare-related
idiocy on another group, so that my mind thought "Caesar", but my silly
fingers typed "Shakespeare".