It's not that

[Grant Hicks]

Valete omnes.

An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is not
the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a reasonably
authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?

GH

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is not
the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a reasonably
authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?

For sheer brevity, there's no beating good old "non" and "neque", which I
suppose can take on the required nuance of meaning from the context.

Looking at my contributions to the Lhomond translation group, I see that I
rendered "Neque tamen..." by "Not that..." (in the sense of "It's not
that...") in the following passage:

Numquam tantum pavoris Romae fuit, quantum ubi acceptae cladis nuncius
advenit. Neque tamen ulla pacis mentio facta est; imo Varroni calamitatis
auctori obviam itum est ... (37:18-19)

(Meanwhile,) the arrival at Rome of news of the calamitous defeat they had
suffered produced an unprecedented degree of panic. Not that there was any
talk of peace - on the contrary, people trooped out to meet Varro (the guy
responsible for the disaster)...

Also, in Amphitryo,
"It's not that I like to leave you here and go away."
was given by Paul Nixon as a translation of:
"Non ego te hic lubens relinquo neque abeo abs te."
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm

Patruus

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that
I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something
like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so".
Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?

For sheer brevity, there's no beating good old "non" and "neque", which
I suppose can take on the required nuance of meaning from the context.
Looking at my contributions to the Lhomond translation group, I see that
I rendered "Neque tamen..." by "Not that..." (in the sense of "It's not
Numquam tantum pavoris Romae fuit, quantum ubi acceptae cladis nuncius
advenit. Neque tamen ulla pacis mentio facta est; imo Varroni
calamitatis auctori obviam itum est ... (37:18-19)
(Meanwhile,) the arrival at Rome of news of the calamitous defeat they
had suffered produced an unprecedented degree of panic. Not that there
was any talk of peace - on the contrary, people trooped out to meet
Varro (the guy responsible for the disaster)...
Also, in Amphitryo,
"It's not that I like to leave you here and go away."
"Non ego te hic lubens relinquo neque abeo abs te."
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm

While hotfooting it back from today's hunter-gathering expedition, it
miraculously occurred to me that another avenue that might be explored is
that of the "clause of rejected reason" - G&L 541 Note 2, + A&G 540 Note 3.

Patruus

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I
don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like
"it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there
a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?

For sheer brevity, there's no beating good old "non" and "neque", which I
suppose can take on the required nuance of meaning from the context.
Looking at my contributions to the Lhomond translation group, I see that
I rendered "Neque tamen..." by "Not that..." (in the sense of "It's not
Numquam tantum pavoris Romae fuit, quantum ubi acceptae cladis nuncius
advenit. Neque tamen ulla pacis mentio facta est; imo Varroni calamitatis
auctori obviam itum est ... (37:18-19)
(Meanwhile,) the arrival at Rome of news of the calamitous defeat they
had suffered produced an unprecedented degree of panic. Not that there
was any talk of peace - on the contrary, people trooped out to meet Varro
(the guy responsible for the disaster)...
Also, in Amphitryo,
"It's not that I like to leave you here and go away."
"Non ego te hic lubens relinquo neque abeo abs te."
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16564/16564-h/16564-h.htm

While hotfooting it back from today's hunter-gathering expedition, it
miraculously occurred to me that another avenue that might be explored is
that of the "clause of rejected reason" - G&L 541 Note 2, + A&G 540 Note 3.
Patruus

I've downloaded A&G from Textkit to look at this. That subjunctive usage in
540 Note 3 strikes me as the closest we've come so far. I've seen that quite
a lot in Cicero and others of his time, and it conveys (to my mind) just the
thing here.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

[*] Note 3.-- Non quod, non quia,non quo, introducing a reason expressly to
deny it, take the Subjunctive; but the Indicative sometimes occurs when the
statement is in itself true, though not the true reason. In the negative,
non quin (with the Subjunctive) may be used in nearly the same sense as non
quod non. After a comparative, quam quo or quam quod is used:-

1.. "pugiles ingemescunt,non quod doleant, sed quia profundenda voce omne
corpus intenditur " (Tusc. 2.56) , boxers groan, not because they are in
pain, but because by giving vent to the voice the whole body is put in a
state of tension.
2.. "non quia rectior ad Alpis via esset, sed credens " (Liv. 21.31.2) ,
not because the route to the Alps was more direct, but believing, etc.
3.. "non quin pari virtute et voluntate aliifuerint, sed tantam causam non
habuerunt " (Phil. 7.6) , not that there were not others of equal courage
and good-will, but they had not so strong a reason.
4.. "haec amore magis impulsus scribenda ad te putavi, quam quote
arbitrarermonitis et praeceptis egere " (Fam. 10.3.4) , this I thought I
ought to write to you, rather from the impulse of (prompted by) affection
than because I thought that you needed advice and suggestion.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer
[*] Note 3.-- Non quod, non quia,non quo, introducing a reason expressly
to deny it, take the Subjunctive; but the Indicative sometimes occurs when
the statement is in itself true, though not the true reason. In the
negative, non quin (with the Subjunctive) may be used in nearly the same
sense as non quod non. After a comparative, quam quo or quam quod is
used:-
1.. "pugiles ingemescunt,non quod doleant, sed quia profundenda voce omne
corpus intenditur " (Tusc. 2.56) , boxers groan, not because they are in
pain, but because by giving vent to the voice the whole body is put in a
state of tension.
2.. "non quia rectior ad Alpis via esset, sed credens " (Liv. 21.31.2) ,
not because the route to the Alps was more direct, but believing, etc.
3.. "non quin pari virtute et voluntate aliifuerint, sed tantam causam
non habuerunt " (Phil. 7.6) , not that there were not others of equal
courage and good-will, but they had not so strong a reason.
4.. "haec amore magis impulsus scribenda ad te putavi, quam quote
arbitrarermonitis et praeceptis egere " (Fam. 10.3.4) , this I thought I
ought to write to you, rather from the impulse of (prompted by) affection
than because I thought that you needed advice and suggestion.

Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition puts it this way.
485. A reason which is mentioned only to be set aside, is introduced by non
quod, non quo, 'not that', non quin, 'not but what', and the verb is always
subjunctive.
Sometimes the accepted reason follows in a clause introduced by sed quod
and having an indicative verb.
Haec feci, non quo tui me taedeat (or non quin me ames) sed quod abire
cupio. I did this, not that I am tired of you (or not but what you love me),
but because I am anxious to depart.

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Ed Cryer
[*] Note 3.-- Non quod, non quia,non quo, introducing a reason
expressly to deny it, take the Subjunctive; but the Indicative
sometimes occurs when the statement is in itself true, though not the
true reason. In the negative, non quin (with the Subjunctive) may be
used in nearly the same sense as non quod non. After a comparative,
quam quo or quam quod is used:-
1.. "pugiles ingemescunt,non quod doleant, sed quia profundenda voce
omne corpus intenditur " (Tusc. 2.56) , boxers groan, not because they
are in pain, but because by giving vent to the voice the whole body is
put in a state of tension.
2.. "non quia rectior ad Alpis via esset, sed credens " (Liv.
21.31.2) , not because the route to the Alps was more direct, but
believing, etc.
3.. "non quin pari virtute et voluntate aliifuerint, sed tantam
causam non habuerunt " (Phil. 7.6) , not that there were not others of
equal courage and good-will, but they had not so strong a reason.
4.. "haec amore magis impulsus scribenda ad te putavi, quam quote
arbitrarermonitis et praeceptis egere " (Fam. 10.3.4) , this I thought
I ought to write to you, rather from the impulse of (prompted by)
affection than because I thought that you needed advice and suggestion.

Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition puts it this way.
485. A reason which is mentioned only to be set aside, is introduced by
non quod, non quo, 'not that', non quin, 'not but what', and the verb is
always subjunctive.
Sometimes the accepted reason follows in a clause introduced by sed
quod and having an indicative verb.
Haec feci, non quo tui me taedeat (or non quin me ames) sed quod
abire cupio. I did this, not that I am tired of you (or not but what you
love me), but because I am anxious to depart.

I've long wondered what "not but what you love me" means! Is it English?

Numptius (vel Numptiosus)

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Ed Cryer
[*] Note 3.-- Non quod, non quia,non quo, introducing a reason expressly
to deny it, take the Subjunctive; but the Indicative sometimes occurs
when the statement is in itself true, though not the true reason. In the
negative, non quin (with the Subjunctive) may be used in nearly the same
sense as non quod non. After a comparative, quam quo or quam quod is
used:-
1.. "pugiles ingemescunt,non quod doleant, sed quia profundenda voce
omne corpus intenditur " (Tusc. 2.56) , boxers groan, not because they
are in pain, but because by giving vent to the voice the whole body is
put in a state of tension.
2.. "non quia rectior ad Alpis via esset, sed credens " (Liv. 21.31.2)
, not because the route to the Alps was more direct, but believing, etc.
3.. "non quin pari virtute et voluntate aliifuerint, sed tantam causam
non habuerunt " (Phil. 7.6) , not that there were not others of equal
courage and good-will, but they had not so strong a reason.
4.. "haec amore magis impulsus scribenda ad te putavi, quam quote
arbitrarermonitis et praeceptis egere " (Fam. 10.3.4) , this I thought I
ought to write to you, rather from the impulse of (prompted by)
affection than because I thought that you needed advice and suggestion.

Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition puts it this way.
485. A reason which is mentioned only to be set aside, is introduced by
non quod, non quo, 'not that', non quin, 'not but what', and the verb is
always subjunctive.
Sometimes the accepted reason follows in a clause introduced by sed
quod and having an indicative verb.
Haec feci, non quo tui me taedeat (or non quin me ames) sed quod
abire cupio. I did this, not that I am tired of you (or not but what you
love me), but because I am anxious to depart.

I've long wondered what "not but what you love me" means! Is it English?
Numptius (vel Numptiosus)

I don't know. When I copied it from Bradley's A, I thought it was cute and
charming old English. But now that I've googled for it, I'm not sure;
http://tinyurl.com/otxnv

Ed

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Ed Cryer
Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition puts it this way.
485. A reason which is mentioned only to be set aside, is introduced
by non quod, non quo, 'not that', non quin, 'not but what', and the
verb is always subjunctive.
Sometimes the accepted reason follows in a clause introduced by sed
quod and having an indicative verb.
Haec feci, non quo tui me taedeat (or non quin me ames) sed quod
abire cupio. I did this, not that I am tired of you (or not but what
you love me), but because I am anxious to depart.

I've long wondered what "not but what you love me" means! Is it English?
Numptius (vel Numptiosus)

I don't know. When I copied it from Bradley's A, I thought it was cute
and charming old English. But now that I've googled for it, I'm not sure;
http://tinyurl.com/otxnv

I've found some instances of "not but what" in the OED
s.v. "what", sense C.I.5.b. -

[QUOTE:]
b. loosely as conjunctional phr.: But that, that..not (= BUT C. 12):
see also BUT C. 30. colloq.

¶In quot. 1807 exceptionally without preceding negative: = BUT C. 11a.
1662 [see BUT C. 30]. 1753 A. MURPHY Gray's Inn Jrnl. No. 43 There hardly
arose an Incident, but what our Fellow-Traveller would repeat twenty or
thirty Verses in a Breath. 1807 W. IRVING Salmag. No. 9 (1824) 144 In vain
did the wind whistle and the storm beat{em}my aunt would waddle through mud
and mire, over the whole town, but what she would visit them. c1883 E.
FITZGERALD Let. in A. C. Benson E. Fitzgerald (1905) i. 19 Never having
read his father's [poems]..till drawn to them by me... Not but what he
loved and admired his father in every shape but that. 1894 DU MAURIER
Trilby VI. (1895) 284 Not but what many changes had been wrought. 1908 R.
BAGOT A. Cuthbert xxi. 257 You should have kept quiet in the house to-day.
Not but what you are certainly looking better than you did early this morning.
[:ENDQUOTE]

(BTW I trust that you, like me, enjoy free access to the online OED via
your local library's website.)

No sooner had my cliche-ridden brain started to think, "You learn something
new every day," than before my very eyes flashed another of BA's immortal
sentences:
"Pater tuus ad extremam senectutem cottidie aliquid addiscebat."
(The Key's answer to Exercise 23A #6.]

Numptius Senex

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Johannes Patruus
(BTW I trust that you, like me, enjoy free access to the online OED via
your local library's website.)

Do you have to be in your library to get this service?
There's a list of all UK library websites here
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ac940/weblibs.html#opacs
and I can't see a link on them.

Ed

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Johannes Patruus
(BTW I trust that you, like me, enjoy free access to the online OED
via your local library's website.)

Do you have to be in your library to get this service?

Happily not. As stated near the foot of this page:
http://www.oup.com/online/englishpubliclibraries/
"Members of subscribing libraries can access the resources from any
computer at any time - as well as within the library! Check with your local
library for details."

Post by Ed Cryer
There's a list of all UK library websites here
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ac940/weblibs.html#opacs
and I can't see a link on them.

This is the relevant page of Barnet library's website:
http://tinyurl.com/g9l2r
Scroll down to see the list of links to online reference works
(including OED).

Hopefully your own library will have something similar.
cf. http://www.oup.com/online/englishpubliclibraries/libraries/

Patruus

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Johannes Patruus
(BTW I trust that you, like me, enjoy free access to the online OED via
your local library's website.)

Do you have to be in your library to get this service?

http://www.oup.com/online/englishpubliclibraries/
"Members of subscribing libraries can access the resources from any
computer at any time - as well as within the library! Check with your
local library for details."

Post by Ed Cryer
There's a list of all UK library websites here
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ac940/weblibs.html#opacs
and I can't see a link on them.

http://tinyurl.com/g9l2r
Scroll down to see the list of links to online reference works
(including OED).
Hopefully your own library will have something similar.
cf. http://www.oup.com/online/englishpubliclibraries/libraries/
Patruus

Bingo!
I live between two towns; one being a city. The city library site didn't
have it on, but the town is affiliated with the county library and my card
for that is a county card. So I went to the county website, put the number
in the box, and in I went. Straight in with just the number! The site is now
bookmarked, and the number stored in a Notepad file in My Documents.

Ed

[Johannes Patruus]

<snip>

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Johannes Patruus
While hotfooting it back from today's hunter-gathering expedition, it
miraculously occurred to me that another avenue that might be explored
is that of the "clause of rejected reason" - G&L 541 Note 2, + A&G 540
Note 3.

I've downloaded A&G from Textkit to look at this.

Also at Perseus - http://tinyurl.com/lh32w
for those can penetrate their numptyish navigation system. Or maybe it's me
that's the numpty for always floundering with it!

Patruus Numptius

Post by Ed Cryer
That subjunctive usage
in 540 Note 3 strikes me as the closest we've come so far. I've seen
that quite a lot in Cicero and others of his time, and it conveys (to my
mind) just the thing here.
Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is
not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a
reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

If I might continue your sentence it would take us into the meaning of this
expression.

It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I don't have the time".
or maybe
"It's not that the spirit isn't willing, it's just that the body is weak".

Now, I think "it's not that" boils down to something like causal emphasis;
something like "the main point here isn't x but y" or even "the assumption
of x is wrong, that of y is right".

So, I could rephrase my two above sentences;
I do want to but I don't have the time.
The spirit is willing but the body is weak.
(I take it that both of the above would go straight into Latin without
qualms.)

We're left now, then, with just the question; is there a Latin idiom?
What's amiss with just "non vero ...... sed"?
Non vero mihi deest desiderium, sed tempore careo.
Non vero spiritus meus nolit; corpus tamen deficit.

Ed

[B. T. Raven]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is
not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a
reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

If I might continue your sentence it would take us into the meaning of this
expression.
It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I don't have the time".
or maybe
"It's not that the spirit isn't willing, it's just that the body is weak".
Now, I think "it's not that" boils down to something like causal emphasis;
something like "the main point here isn't x but y" or even "the assumption
of x is wrong, that of y is right".
So, I could rephrase my two above sentences;
I do want to but I don't have the time.
The spirit is willing but the body is weak.
(I take it that both of the above would go straight into Latin without
qualms.)
We're left now, then, with just the question; is there a Latin idiom?
What's amiss with just "non vero ...... sed"?
Non vero mihi deest desiderium, sed tempore careo.
Non vero spiritus meus nolit; corpus tamen deficit.
Ed

Googling on "non quin" (in quotes ) I see many examples that seem spot on.
So, for "it's not that I don't want to help..." I would hazard:

Non quin (adeo) auxiliari nolim, sed ideo...

Maybe

Eduardus

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,

but

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I

don't

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it

is

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a
reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

If I might continue your sentence it would take us into the meaning of

this

Post by Ed Cryer
expression.
It's not that I don't want to, it's just that I don't have the time".
or maybe
"It's not that the spirit isn't willing, it's just that the body is

weak".

Post by Ed Cryer
Now, I think "it's not that" boils down to something like causal

emphasis;

Post by Ed Cryer
something like "the main point here isn't x but y" or even "the

assumption

Post by Ed Cryer
of x is wrong, that of y is right".
So, I could rephrase my two above sentences;
I do want to but I don't have the time.
The spirit is willing but the body is weak.
(I take it that both of the above would go straight into Latin without
qualms.)
We're left now, then, with just the question; is there a Latin idiom?
What's amiss with just "non vero ...... sed"?
Non vero mihi deest desiderium, sed tempore careo.
Non vero spiritus meus nolit; corpus tamen deficit.
Ed

Googling on "non quin" (in quotes ) I see many examples that seem spot on.
Non quin (adeo) auxiliari nolim, sed ideo...
Maybe
Eduardus

Yes, I guess so. At least that's how I take it.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is
not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a
reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas these
Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence with the
addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or "Sic persuasus
sum" or "In hac sententia sto".


Ed

[Grant Hicks]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that
I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something
like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so".
Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence with
the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or "Sic
persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.

Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above. All
the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate clauses.
And I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause will work
in all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there exists any
specific such clause that will work in all circumstances. To adapt your
example, the main clause corresponding to "not because I don't want to
but because I don't have the time" is not really "I'm of this opinion"
but rather, for example, "I don't help". This is fine if it's obvious
what the main clause should be, but I don't think this is always the
case, and inventing one may inject information into the translation that
the original author didn't have in mind, or didn't intend to state
explicitly.

It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do the
trick?

Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.

GH

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I
don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like
"it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there
a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence with
the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or "Sic
persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above. All
the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate clauses. And
I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause will work in all
circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there exists any specific such
clause that will work in all circumstances. To adapt your example, the
main clause corresponding to "not because I don't want to but because I
don't have the time" is not really "I'm of this opinion" but rather, for
example, "I don't help". This is fine if it's obvious what the main
clause should be, but I don't think this is always the case, and inventing
one may inject information into the translation that the original author
didn't have in mind, or didn't intend to state explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something meaning
"such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do the trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's the best.
And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate, and
carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero .... sed" has a
kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated Roman,
just as "it's not that" does in current English.

You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichés of two
different languages. You have to settle for the best approximation you can
get; and that will hardly ever be a logical dovetailing once you get any
higher than the basic grammar and syntax.

OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't want to;
it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to but
because I don't have the time".

Ed

[Caligula]

Post by Ed Cryer
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to but
because I don't have the time".

Magnifique ! Je comprends l'anglais quand il est aussi bien écrit.
Brilliant ! I understand English when he is so well written.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Ed Cryer
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want

to but

Post by Ed Cryer
because I don't have the time".

Magnifique ! Je comprends l'anglais quand il est aussi bien crit.
Brilliant ! I understand English when he is so well written.
--
Caligula

Some thoughts on "it".

This "it" is very characteristic of English.
It is raining.
It will be fine tomorrow.
It is a fact that..
It is often said that...
It is because I love her that....
It can't be proven but ...
It didn't occur to me to ask why...
etc.

And what it does is provide a subject for a stand-alone sentence.
But Latin didn't/doesn't do that. Just as modern Spanish doesn't, but French
and German do (to some extent).

Ed

[Caligula]

Post by Ed Cryer
Some thoughts on "it".

My apologies for my terrific mistake ! Mea culpa, mea magna culpa, mea
maxima culpa... :o)

Yesterday night, before sleeping, in my bed I rode some pages of an
adventure of Tintin translated in English : The Castafiore emerald. My
lecture made me jump and I said to me : "Good gracious ! It was not
"he" but "it" ! When "It" so well written... was the right way ! "

Goscinny, the French author of the text of the Astérix stories, in
the album "Astérix chez les Bretons" translates "verbatim" some of
your characteristic set phrases. It takes part in the humour of this
funny album.

"Il est, n'est-il pas ?" :o)
"It is, isn't it ?"

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Caligula

Post by Ed Cryer
Some thoughts on "it".

My apologies for my terrific mistake ! Mea culpa, mea magna culpa, mea
maxima culpa... :o)
Yesterday night, before sleeping, in my bed I rode some pages of an
adventure of Tintin translated in English : The Castafiore emerald. My
lecture made me jump and I said to me : "Good gracious ! It was not
"he" but "it" ! When "It" so well written... was the right way ! "
Goscinny, the French author of the text of the Astrix stories, in
the album "Astrix chez les Bretons" translates "verbatim" some of
your characteristic set phrases. It takes part in the humour of this
funny album.
"Il est, n'est-il pas ?" :o)
"It is, isn't it ?"
--
Caligula

Ça plane pour moi!

Ed le Grec

[Grant Hicks]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my
way, but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's
not that I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for
something like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem
to be so". Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin
equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence
with the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or
"Sic persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above.
All the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate
clauses. And I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause
will work in all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there
exists any specific such clause that will work in all circumstances.
To adapt your example, the main clause corresponding to "not because I
don't want to but because I don't have the time" is not really "I'm of
this opinion" but rather, for example, "I don't help". This is fine
if it's obvious what the main clause should be, but I don't think this
is always the case, and inventing one may inject information into the
translation that the original author didn't have in mind, or didn't
intend to state explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do
the trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's the
best. And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate, and
carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero .... sed" has a
kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated
Roman, just as "it's not that" does in current English.
You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichés of two
different languages. You have to settle for the best approximation you
can get; and that will hardly ever be a logical dovetailing once you get
any higher than the basic grammar and syntax.
OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't want
to; it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to
but because I don't have the time".
Ed

This example is fine, but the main clause has been handed to you on a
silver platter. All you have to do is turn two sentences into one. But
how about this:

http://tinyurl.com/mclwk

I don't have any idea what the main clause would be here.

If "non vero ... sed" doesn't strike your Latinate fancy, how about "non
quidem ... sed [tantum]"? To judge from Google this seems to be fairly
common, at least in Christian Latin, and although most of the examples
aren't complete sentences, a few are or could be.

GH

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that
I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something
like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so".
Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence with
the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or "Sic
persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above. All
the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate clauses. And
I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause will work in
all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there exists any specific
such clause that will work in all circumstances. To adapt your example,
the main clause corresponding to "not because I don't want to but
because I don't have the time" is not really "I'm of this opinion" but
rather, for example, "I don't help". This is fine if it's obvious what
the main clause should be, but I don't think this is always the case,
and inventing one may inject information into the translation that the
original author didn't have in mind, or didn't intend to state
explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do the
trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's the
best. And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate, and
carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero .... sed" has a
kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated Roman,
just as "it's not that" does in current English.
You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichés of two
different languages. You have to settle for the best approximation you
can get; and that will hardly ever be a logical dovetailing once you get
any higher than the basic grammar and syntax.
OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't want
to; it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to
but because I don't have the time".
Ed

This example is fine, but the main clause has been handed to you on a
silver platter. All you have to do is turn two sentences into one. But
http://tinyurl.com/mclwk
I don't have any idea what the main clause would be here.
If "non vero ... sed" doesn't strike your Latinate fancy, how about "non
quidem ... sed [tantum]"? To judge from Google this seems to be fairly
common, at least in Christian Latin, and although most of the examples
aren't complete sentences, a few are or could be.
GH

Yes. Ah! Well, in for a penny, in for a pound.

Now, that is a mixture of two idioms. And it's the "it" that makes it
possible. It's half "it is a fact that..." and half our current causal "it's
not that...".

This is how language evolves. It's the open-ended nature of language. And if
you keep insisting on one Latin expression to cover all the English ones,
then you're out on a limb.

Ed

[Grant Hicks]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way,
but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that
I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something
like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem to be so".
Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence with
the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or "Sic
persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above. All
the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate clauses.
And I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause will work
in all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there exists any
specific such clause that will work in all circumstances. To adapt
your example, the main clause corresponding to "not because I don't
want to but because I don't have the time" is not really "I'm of this
opinion" but rather, for example, "I don't help". This is fine if it's
obvious what the main clause should be, but I don't think this is
always the case, and inventing one may inject information into the
translation that the original author didn't have in mind, or didn't
intend to state explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do the
trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's the
best. And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate, and
carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero .... sed" has a
kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated
Roman, just as "it's not that" does in current English.
You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichés of two
different languages. You have to settle for the best approximation you
can get; and that will hardly ever be a logical dovetailing once you get
any higher than the basic grammar and syntax.
OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't want
to; it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to
but because I don't have the time".
Ed

This example is fine, but the main clause has been handed to you on a
silver platter. All you have to do is turn two sentences into one. But
http://tinyurl.com/mclwk
I don't have any idea what the main clause would be here.
If "non vero ... sed" doesn't strike your Latinate fancy, how about "non
quidem ... sed [tantum]"? To judge from Google this seems to be fairly
common, at least in Christian Latin, and although most of the examples
aren't complete sentences, a few are or could be.
GH

Yes. Ah! Well, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Now, that is a mixture of two idioms. And it's the "it" that makes it
possible. It's half "it is a fact that..." and half our current causal
"it's not that...".
This is how language evolves. It's the open-ended nature of language. And
if you keep insisting on one Latin expression to cover all the English
ones, then you're out on a limb.
Ed

I'm not sure I'm following you here. _What_ is a mixture of idioms made
possible by "it"? If this is a reference to my "non quidem ... sed
[tantum]", then I don't see how "it" comes into it.

Regarding the limb I'm out on, let's assume for the sake of discussion that
I overstated my case and I'm not really looking for a one-size-fits-all
Latin expression. At this point I'd be happy with a reasonable translation
of one specific example, e.g. the one I linked above ("It's not that the
mountains are so high, but that the valleys are so deep"). Can this be done
without specifying the result for which this is the cause?

GH

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my
way, but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's
not that I don't want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for
something like "it is not the case that X, even though it may seem
to be so". Is there a reasonably authentic (and brief) Latin
equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered. The
English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence, whereas
these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence
with the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio" or
"Sic persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above.
All the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate
clauses. And I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra clause
will work in all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that there
exists any specific such clause that will work in all circumstances.
To adapt your example, the main clause corresponding to "not because I
don't want to but because I don't have the time" is not really "I'm of
this opinion" but rather, for example, "I don't help". This is fine
if it's obvious what the main clause should be, but I don't think this
is always the case, and inventing one may inject information into the
translation that the original author didn't have in mind, or didn't
intend to state explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit" do
the trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's the
best. And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate, and
carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero .... sed" has
a kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated
Roman, just as "it's not that" does in current English.
You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichs of two
different languages. You have to settle for the best approximation you
can get; and that will hardly ever be a logical dovetailing once you
get any higher than the basic grammar and syntax.
OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't want
to; it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't want to
but because I don't have the time".
Ed

This example is fine, but the main clause has been handed to you on a
silver platter. All you have to do is turn two sentences into one. But
http://tinyurl.com/mclwk
I don't have any idea what the main clause would be here.
If "non vero ... sed" doesn't strike your Latinate fancy, how about "non
quidem ... sed [tantum]"? To judge from Google this seems to be fairly
common, at least in Christian Latin, and although most of the examples
aren't complete sentences, a few are or could be.
GH

Yes. Ah! Well, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Now, that is a mixture of two idioms. And it's the "it" that makes it
possible. It's half "it is a fact that..." and half our current causal
"it's not that...".
This is how language evolves. It's the open-ended nature of language. And
if you keep insisting on one Latin expression to cover all the English
ones, then you're out on a limb.
Ed

I'm not sure I'm following you here. _What_ is a mixture of idioms made
possible by "it"? If this is a reference to my "non quidem ... sed
[tantum]", then I don't see how "it" comes into it.
Regarding the limb I'm out on, let's assume for the sake of discussion
that I overstated my case and I'm not really looking for a
one-size-fits-all Latin expression. At this point I'd be happy with a
reasonable translation of one specific example, e.g. the one I linked
above ("It's not that the mountains are so high, but that the valleys are
so deep"). Can this be done without specifying the result for which this
is the cause?
GH

In this group we have a classic example of long standing to illustrate this
point.
It's very instructive.

"He was sent a letter".
1. Is it good English?
2. Parse it.
3. Translate it into Latin.

Ed

[Grant Hicks]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my
way, but I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in
"it's not that I don't want to help...") I take this to be
shorthand for something like "it is not the case that X, even
though it may seem to be so". Is there a reasonably authentic
(and brief) Latin equivalent?
GH

There's one aspect of Grant's original question still unanswered.
The English expression "It's not that..." constitutes a sentence,
whereas these Latin usages are clauses.
So I suggest that they could all be rendered into a full sentence
with the addition of a main clause such as "Haec mea est opinio"
or "Sic persuasus sum" or "In hac sententia sto".
Ed

First of all, thanks to all those who responded.
Ed, I was working on a post making a similar point to yours above.
All the examples of "non quo/non quod/non quin" are subordinate
clauses. And I'm not sure that the expedient of adding an extra
clause will work in all circumstances -- or perhaps, rather, that
there exists any specific such clause that will work in all
circumstances. To adapt your example, the main clause
corresponding to "not because I don't want to but because I don't
have the time" is not really "I'm of this opinion" but rather, for
example, "I don't help". This is fine if it's obvious what the
main clause should be, but I don't think this is always the case,
and inventing one may inject information into the translation that
the original author didn't have in mind, or didn't intend to state
explicitly.
It does occur to me that it might be possible to employ something
meaning "such is the case". Would "sic accidit" or "sic evenit"
do the trick?
Failing that, I'm tempted to go back to "non vero ... sed" or the like.
GH

I think I take your point, but this subjunctive usage was Johannes'
brainwave; and as soon as I read it I felt very strongly that it's
the best. And I still do.
It has that feel of "native speaker" about it. It's so appropriate,
and carries that idiomatic characteristic, whereas "non vero ....
sed" has a kind of flat aura to it.
Things like this would have come straight to mind for the educated
Roman, just as "it's not that" does in current English.
You can't have your cake and eat it with the idiomatic clichs of
two different languages. You have to settle for the best
approximation you can get; and that will hardly ever be a logical
dovetailing once you get any higher than the basic grammar and syntax.
OK, so Latin would use a subordinate clause. An example;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today. It's not that I don't
want to; it's because I don't have the time".
recast into a Latin construction;
"I can't come over and mow your lawn today, not because I don't
want to but because I don't have the time".
Ed

This example is fine, but the main clause has been handed to you on
a silver platter. All you have to do is turn two sentences into
http://tinyurl.com/mclwk
I don't have any idea what the main clause would be here.
If "non vero ... sed" doesn't strike your Latinate fancy, how about
"non quidem ... sed [tantum]"? To judge from Google this seems to
be fairly common, at least in Christian Latin, and although most of
the examples aren't complete sentences, a few are or could be.
GH

Yes. Ah! Well, in for a penny, in for a pound.
Now, that is a mixture of two idioms. And it's the "it" that makes it
possible. It's half "it is a fact that..." and half our current
causal "it's not that...".
This is how language evolves. It's the open-ended nature of language.
And if you keep insisting on one Latin expression to cover all the
English ones, then you're out on a limb.
Ed

I'm not sure I'm following you here. _What_ is a mixture of idioms
made possible by "it"? If this is a reference to my "non quidem ...
sed [tantum]", then I don't see how "it" comes into it.
Regarding the limb I'm out on, let's assume for the sake of discussion
that I overstated my case and I'm not really looking for a
one-size-fits-all Latin expression. At this point I'd be happy with a
reasonable translation of one specific example, e.g. the one I linked
above ("It's not that the mountains are so high, but that the valleys
are so deep"). Can this be done without specifying the result for
which this is the cause?
GH

In this group we have a classic example of long standing to illustrate
this point.
It's very instructive.
"He was sent a letter".
1. Is it good English?
2. Parse it.
3. Translate it into Latin.
Ed

Of course there's not always a one-to-one correspondence of grammatical
forms, but I don't think there's any dispute that the underlying thought
is clear and can be expressed in Latin. A letter was sent to him;
epistula ei missa est (with possible variations in word order for
emphasis). Latin sentences involving the gerundive are also resistant
to literal translation into English, but it's generally possible to
produce a reasonable equivalent nonetheless.

It may be that the thought underlying "it's not that the mountains ..."
is not correspondingly clear, but I don't think it's bad English. If
there's no obviously idiomatic Latin equivalent that doesn't involve
introducing entire new clauses specifying information not given in the
original, then so be it; I may have to settle after all for something
along the lines of "non quidem ... sed". I don't think, from my Google
and Perseus search results, that this is _bad_ Latin, just (perhaps) not
optimal.

GH

[Robert Stonehouse]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 23:29:30 GMT, "Grant Hicks"

Post by Grant Hicks
Valete omnes.
An interesting English-to-Latin translation exercise has come my way, but
I'm hung up on the phrase "it's not that X' (as in "it's not that I don't
want to help...") I take this to be shorthand for something like "it is not
the case that X, even though it may seem to be so". Is there a reasonably
authentic (and brief) Latin equivalent?

I suspect Latin would approach it differently. There is a
problem, perhaps, in having only half the sentence. Suppose
it was:
"It's not that I don't want to help; the point is that I
don't understand the question."

Then I would suggest:
"Auxilium ferre nullo modo sum invitus; necessae est autem
intellegam quid quaeris."

That is, I doubt if we can translate "it's not that I don't
want to help..." on its own, because Latin would naturally
shape the first half to fit the second.