The Latin response at the gospel reading

[Michael Kellogg]

Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at the
Mass reading of the Gospel?

I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess). Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).

Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at the
Mass reading of the Gospel?
I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess). Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!

You will find the answer to your question in the parallel Latin-English text
of the Tridentine Mass on this page:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm

Something to help you get to grips with the Latin:
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/simplicissimus/

Johannes

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at
the Mass reading of the Gospel?

You will find the answer to your question in the parallel Latin-English text
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm
http://www.latin-mass-society.org/simplicissimus/

Here is a 27-second audio clip of the part of the Mass in question, with
beautiful choral responses, taken from a reconstruction of the Bavarian
Royal Wedding of 1698:
http://www.members.aol.com/jrpatruus/DV.mpg

Johannes

[SNM]

The response to "Dominus Vorbiscum" is "Et cum spiritu tuo" which according
to my handy Saint Joseph Daily Missal, translates to "And with your spirit."

To the best of my knowledge, the Anglicans and Orthodox also respond in the
vernacular with "And with your spirit". Can anyone explain why the
post-concilliar reformers of the Latin Missal changed the text to "And also
with you"? What is the significance of that change?

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at the
Mass reading of the Gospel?
I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess). Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!
--
God Bless,
Michael

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by SNM
The response to "Dominus Vorbiscum" is "Et cum spiritu tuo" which according
to my handy Saint Joseph Daily Missal, translates to "And with your spirit."
To the best of my knowledge, the Anglicans and Orthodox also respond in the
vernacular with "And with your spirit". Can anyone explain why the
post-concilliar reformers of the Latin Missal changed the text to "And also
with you"? What is the significance of that change?

The issue appears to be one of some controversy. A quick search reveals a
number of places on the Web where it is discussed, including the following:

http://www.episcopalian.org/pbs1928/Articles/Etcumspiritutuo.htm
http://reformationtoday.tripod.com/chemnitz/id39.html
http://trushare.com/86JUL02/JY02HUNW.htm

Johannes

Post by SNM

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at

the

Post by Michael Kellogg
Mass reading of the Gospel?
I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess). Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!
--
God Bless,
Michael

[Mark Johnson]

Post by SNM
The response to "Dominus Vorbiscum" is "Et cum spiritu tuo" which according
to my handy Saint Joseph Daily Missal, translates to "And with your spirit."
To the best of my knowledge, the Anglicans and Orthodox also respond in the
vernacular with "And with your spirit". Can anyone explain why the
post-concilliar reformers of the Latin Missal changed the text to "And also
with you"? What is the significance of that change?

The whole thing was a change away from Catholic teaching. That's been
the subject of _countless_ threads on the religious ngs.

See http://www.geocities.com/ymjcath/Books.htm

For an online text of The Mass:

http://www.geocities.com/ymjcath/The_Mass.htm


Peace.

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by SNM
The response to "Dominus Vorbiscum" is "Et cum spiritu tuo" which according
to my handy Saint Joseph Daily Missal, translates to "And with your spirit."
To the best of my knowledge, the Anglicans and Orthodox also respond in the
vernacular with "And with your spirit". Can anyone explain why the
post-concilliar reformers of the Latin Missal changed the text to "And also
with you"? What is the significance of that change?

Ut mihi videtur, hoc commutatio Anglicem varietatem missae neque
translationem Germanicam pertinet. Responsio in missa Germanica adhuc
"und mit deinem Geiste" (et cum spiritu tuo) est.

Cetero censeo versionem Anglicem missae non ad verbum esse:

Mortem tuam annuntiamus, | Christ has died, Christ is risen,
Domine, et tuam resurrectionem | Christ will come again.
confitemur, donec venias. |

translatio ad verbum:

"We announce your death, O Lord, and confess your resurrection until
you come (again)."

In missa Germanica translatio meliuscula est:

"Deinen Tod, oh Herr, verkünden wir und Deine Auferstehung feiern wir,
bis du kommst in Herrlichkeit."

In Latina:

"Mortem tuam annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem celebramus,
donec in gloria venias."

valeas!

DH

[bob]

Lucius Alter sal.

Responsum ad hanc quaestionem aut ex theologia aut ex significationibus
verborum. Si quis ex principiis theologicis disceptare constituerit,
responsum illis qui aliter sentiant seu alioquin credant, quoniam argumenta
de cardine fidei privatae personalisque saepe pendent, displicere debebit.
Si quis autem propositum in significationibus verborum facere velit, in luce
usuum historicis tale propositum investigare possit ut lector argumentis
variis principiisque quae ex fide non oriantur et quae igitur rationi non
superstent recte utatur.

His dictis significationes 'spiritus' et 'pneuma' considerabo. Multae
significationes, veluti id quod spiratur, anima, angelus, spiritus dei, et
Sanctus spiritus, sunt communia et bene sciuntur. Est autem significatio
quae, quamvis aliter intellegatur, ad quaestionem quae ad discernendum inter
sententias 'and with your spirit' 'and with you too' valdius pertinet.
'Pneuma' Graece significationem quae anglice dicit 'a living being' habet.
Et 'spiritus' Latine, quamvis usum Graecum imitetur, at tamen veluti idve
isve qui amatur etiam intellegitur.

Progressio igitur ab significationibus 'is qui vivit' et 'is qui amatur' ad
usum Anglicum progredientem ab sententia 'and with your spirit' ad illam
'and with you too', quamvis sententia posterior mysterio poeseque
sollemnitateque careat, est alius caullis solus ex agris semanticis
verborum 'pneuma' et 'spiritus'.

Veteres, ut suspicor, mysterium plus in faciendo quam in loquendo
inveniebant, propterea quod praesertim inter veterem locutionem consuetam
vel sermonem cotidianum et illos nostros fluit magnum flumen et temporis et
moris. QUamquam Graecia et Roma sunt maximae partes haereditatis nostrae, a
cultu communi humanitateque eorum qui in terris circum Mare Nostrum
incolebant tam longissime absumus ut vetus sermo cotidianus saepe nobis
videatur alienus aut grandis oratio. Si hoc spatium temporis et longinquitas
cultus humanitatisque disceptatione theologica et amaritudine exim exoriente
adumbretur, nos inveniamus 'per una selva oscura,/ che la diritta via era
smarritta'.

Poeta Patrick Kavanagh scripserat:

The violin
Is not more real than the music played upon it...

In his versibus est significatio disceptationis inter 'and with your spirit'
et 'and with you too'.

Valeatis omnes.

[Kevin O'Donnell]

Simplicem explicationem hujus expressionis praebere possum? Saepe saepius
formae hebraicae subjacent dictis latinitatis ecclesiasticae. Usus “et cum
spiritu tuo” aequiparatur “et cum temetipso”. Verbum hebraicum NEPHESH in
latinitatem ecclesiae anima vel spiritus vertitur. Verbum NEPHESH animam,
spiritum, se (anglice SELF) significat. Ergo “et cum spiritu tuo” et “et
cum temetipso” idem sunt.

Kevin O’Donnell

[bob]

Lucius Alter Kevin sal.

Post by Kevin O'Donnell
Simplicem explicationem hujus expressionis praebere possum? Saepe saepius
formae hebraicae subjacent dictis latinitatis ecclesiasticae. Usus “et cum
spiritu tuo” aequiparatur “et cum temetipso”. Verbum hebraicum NEPHESH in
latinitatem ecclesiae anima vel spiritus vertitur. Verbum NEPHESH animam,
spiritum, se (anglice SELF) significat. Ergo “et cum spiritu tuo” et “et
cum temetipso” idem sunt.

Linguam hebraicam apud scriptores ecclesiasticos et praesertim apud
scriptores Novi Testamenti valuisse non nego. Exempla significationum
similium autem apud alios scriptores qui non fuerint Christiani saepe
inveniuntur, et hoc est fundamentum propositi mei. Et significationes 'and
with your spirit ' et 'and with you too' ex usibus illorum verborum
historicis quae leguntur 'et cum spiritu tuo' trahi possunt ut libere
recteque saneque ex usu solito linguarum primitivarum ex Latina in Anglicam
oriantur. Haec res factumque linguarum nulla expositione theologica eget,
ac, si analogi usus Hebraici Aramaici his articulis monstrarentur, patellam
modo ornarent.

Vale.

[Daniel Hoehr]

Pax et salus!

Post by bob
Lucius Alter sal.
Responsum ad hanc quaestionem aut ex theologia aut ex significationibus
verborum. Si quis ex principiis theologicis disceptare constituerit,
responsum illis qui aliter sentiant seu alioquin credant, quoniam argumenta
de cardine fidei privatae personalisque saepe pendent, displicere debebit.
Si quis autem propositum in significationibus verborum facere velit, in luce
usuum historicis tale propositum investigare possit ut lector argumentis
variis principiisque quae ex fide non oriantur et quae igitur rationi non
superstent recte utatur.

Recte scribis, sed saepe comprehendere theologiam a historia et
significatibus verborum in linguis veteribus dependet. Propterea
difficilis est separare disceptationes de theologia fideque a
significationibus verborum in lingua Hebraica/Aramaica, lingua Graeca,
lingua Latina et in linguis hodiernis nostris. Puto id gravem esse, ut
res fidei in luce linguarum et historiae videantur et sic intellegantur.

Post by bob
His dictis significationes 'spiritus' et 'pneuma' considerabo. Multae
significationes, veluti id quod spiratur, anima, angelus, spiritus dei, et
Sanctus spiritus, sunt communia et bene sciuntur. Est autem significatio
quae, quamvis aliter intellegatur, ad quaestionem quae ad discernendum inter
sententias 'and with your spirit' 'and with you too' valdius pertinet.
'Pneuma' Graece significationem quae anglice dicit 'a living being' habet.
Et 'spiritus' Latine, quamvis usum Graecum imitetur, at tamen veluti idve
isve qui amatur etiam intellegitur.
Progressio igitur ab significationibus 'is qui vivit' et 'is qui amatur' ad
usum Anglicum progredientem ab sententia 'and with your spirit' ad illam
'and with you too', quamvis sententia posterior mysterio poeseque
sollemnitateque careat, est alius caullis solus ex agris semanticis
verborum 'pneuma' et 'spiritus'.
Veteres, ut suspicor, mysterium plus in faciendo quam in loquendo
inveniebant, propterea quod praesertim inter veterem locutionem consuetam
vel sermonem cotidianum et illos nostros fluit magnum flumen et temporis et
moris. QUamquam Graecia et Roma sunt maximae partes haereditatis nostrae, a
cultu communi humanitateque eorum qui in terris circum Mare Nostrum
incolebant tam longissime absumus ut vetus sermo cotidianus saepe nobis
videatur alienus aut grandis oratio.

Saepe illi qui instant ut missa in lingua Latina sit missam non
comprehendunt sine interpretatione legere et conspirationem malam in
commutu momentoquoe omni vident.

Post by bob
Si hoc spatium temporis et longinquitas
cultus humanitatisque disceptatione theologica et amaritudine exim exoriente
adumbretur, nos inveniamus 'per una selva oscura,/ che la diritta via era
smarritta'.
The violin
Is not more real than the music played upon it...
In his versibus est significatio disceptationis inter 'and with your spirit'
et 'and with you too'.

Ut mihi videtur, discrepantia inter "et cum spiritu tuo" et "and with
your spirit" tam magna est quam discrepantia inter "pro multis" et
"pro omnibus".

Post by bob
Valeatis omnes.

Valeas.

Daniel

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Daniel Hoehr
Saepe illi qui instant ut missa in lingua Latina sit missam non
comprehendunt sine interpretatione legere

lege: sine interpretationem legendo

valeas

Daniel

[v***@search26.com]

http://www.zared.com/Games/Video_Games/Adventure/Text_Adventures/Ad_Verbum/

[Evertjan.]

Post by Michael Kellogg
Please cc by email

Asking for a private mass is "not done" on usenet.
We like to celebrate Latin together.

"et cum spiritu tuo"

[Michael Kellogg]

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Michael Kellogg
Please cc by email

Asking for a private mass is "not done" on usenet.
We like to celebrate Latin together.
"et cum spiritu tuo"

I appreciate the kind advice, but I have to disagree. That is fine
netiquette on Usenet. I only requested a cc, not a private response.

[Evertjan.]

Post by Michael Kellogg

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Michael Kellogg
Please cc by email

Asking for a private mass is "not done" on usenet.
We like to celebrate Latin together.
"et cum spiritu tuo"

I appreciate the kind advice, but I have to disagree. That is fine
netiquette on Usenet. I only requested a cc, not a private response.

And that suggests you are not prepared to check the NG for answers.

Well, I and many more are not prepared to accomodate you in that.
It is only decent to let you know that.

"et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum"

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Michael Kellogg

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Michael Kellogg
Please cc by email

Asking for a private mass is "not done" on usenet.
We like to celebrate Latin together.
"et cum spiritu tuo"

I appreciate the kind advice, but I have to disagree. That is fine
netiquette on Usenet. I only requested a cc, not a private response.

And that suggests you are not prepared to check the NG for answers.
Well, I and many more are not prepared to accomodate you in that.
It is only decent to let you know that.
"et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum"

Adiutorum nostrum in nomine Domini :-)

DH

Post by Evertjan.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.

Hey, my neighbouring contry :-)

Post by Evertjan.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at the
Mass reading of the Gospel?

Okay, I'm following the Tridentine Rite . . . here.

S. = Sacerdos (Priest)
M. = Minister (Server)

(in the Novus Ordo Missae, the Minister's part is said by the
congregation)

Before the gospel:

Latin: Facing page:

S. Dominus vobiscum. | The Lord be with you.
M. Et cum spiritu tuo. | And with your spirit.
S. + Sequentia sancti | Part of the holy gospel according
Evangelii secundum | to Matthew/Mark/Luke/John
Matthaeum/Marcum/ |
Lucam/Iohannem |
M. Gloria tibi, Domine.| Glory be yours, Lord.


After the gospel:

M. Laus tibi, Christe. | Praise be yours, Christ.
S. Per Evangelica dicta| May our offences be erased
delenatur nostra | by the word of the gospel.
delicta. |

Post by Michael Kellogg
I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess).

"Et cum spiritu tuo" - "and with your spirit."

Post by Michael Kellogg
Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!

This is the Missale Romanum of Pope Saint Pius V. (Latin only):

http://members.surfeu.de/dhoehr/catholic/ordomissae.html


And here's both the Tridentine Rite and the Novus Ordo Missae in Latin
and English:

http://www.catholicliturgy.com/

Click on "Liturgical Texts" and choose the Missal.

Hope I could help.

Daniel

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Daniel Hoehr
M. Laus tibi, Christe. | Praise be yours, Christ.
S. Per Evangelica dicta| May our offences be erased
delenatur nostra | by the word of the gospel.
delicta. |

pro "delenatur" lege "deleantur"

Daniel

[John O'Brien]

"Sequentia" maens "continuation of", not "part of". If the reading began
with chapter 1, verse 1 (e.g. St. John's Prologue, which was read at the end
of most masses until about 1962), the priest said "Initium sancti evengelii
..."

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone give me the Latin and English translation of the response at the
Mass reading of the Gospel?

Okay, I'm following the Tridentine Rite . . . here.
S. = Sacerdos (Priest)
M. = Minister (Server)
(in the Novus Ordo Missae, the Minister's part is said by the
congregation)
S. Dominus vobiscum. | The Lord be with you.
M. Et cum spiritu tuo. | And with your spirit.
S. + Sequentia sancti | Part of the holy gospel according
Evangelii secundum | to Matthew/Mark/Luke/John
Matthaeum/Marcum/ |
Lucam/Iohannem |
M. Gloria tibi, Domine.| Glory be yours, Lord.
M. Laus tibi, Christe. | Praise be yours, Christ.
S. Per Evangelica dicta| May our offences be erased
delenatur nostra | by the word of the gospel.
delicta. |

Post by Michael Kellogg
I can understand the priest chanting "Dominus Vobiscum", and then the
congregation chants a response that I cannot make out (would it be "and
also with you"? just a guess).

"Et cum spiritu tuo" - "and with your spirit."

Post by Michael Kellogg
Then the priest chants another piece of
Latin that I believe translates into the text he'll be reading (e.g. "a
reading from the Gospel according to Luke"), though I can't quite make out
the words he uses. Finally, there is another congregation response right
there (I'm guessing "glory to you, Lord"?).
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!

http://members.surfeu.de/dhoehr/catholic/ordomissae.html
And here's both the Tridentine Rite and the Novus Ordo Missae in Latin
http://www.catholicliturgy.com/
Click on "Liturgical Texts" and choose the Missal.
Hope I could help.
Daniel

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by John O'Brien
"Sequentia" maens "continuation of", not "part of". If the reading began
with chapter 1, verse 1 (e.g. St. John's Prologue, which was read at the end
of most masses until about 1962), the priest said "Initium sancti evengelii
...."

True, my bad.

Daniel

[Gary Vellenzer]

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by John O'Brien
"Sequentia" maens "continuation of", not "part of". If the reading began
with chapter 1, verse 1 (e.g. St. John's Prologue, which was read at the end
of most masses until about 1962), the priest said "Initium sancti evengelii
...."

True, my bad.

The third mass for Christmas also used (uses?) the start of the gospel
of John, and the priest before reading would announce the initium
evangelii secundum Joannnem.

Gary

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Gary Vellenzer

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by John O'Brien
"Sequentia" maens "continuation of", not "part of". If the reading began
with chapter 1, verse 1 (e.g. St. John's Prologue, which was read at the end
of most masses until about 1962), the priest said "Initium sancti evengelii
...."

True, my bad.

The third mass for Christmas also used (uses?) the start of the gospel
of John, and the priest before reading would announce the initium
evangelii secundum Joannnem.

Whether or not it's the third Mass I don't know, yet that's the gospel
for Christmas Day. I suppose it's the third Mass. Only that, at least
over here (Germany that is), the gospel is read in the vernacular (in
the Novus Ordo Missae, of course).

Regards

Daniel

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by Gary Vellenzer

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by John O'Brien
"Sequentia" maens "continuation of", not "part of". If the reading began
with chapter 1, verse 1 (e.g. St. John's Prologue, which was read at the end
of most masses until about 1962), the priest said "Initium sancti

evengelii

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by Gary Vellenzer

Post by Daniel Hoehr

Post by John O'Brien
...."

True, my bad.

The third mass for Christmas also used (uses?) the start of the gospel
of John, and the priest before reading would announce the initium
evangelii secundum Joannnem.

Whether or not it's the third Mass I don't know, yet that's the gospel
for Christmas Day. I suppose it's the third Mass. Only that, at least
over here (Germany that is), the gospel is read in the vernacular (in
the Novus Ordo Missae, of course).

Cf. this overview of the Christmas liturgy:
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm

Johannes

[Daniel Hoehr]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Daniel Hoehr
Whether or not it's the third Mass I don't know, yet that's the gospel
for Christmas Day. I suppose it's the third Mass. Only that, at least
over here (Germany that is), the gospel is read in the vernacular (in
the Novus Ordo Missae, of course).

http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm

Thanks for the link, according to that it's the Third Mass (this seems
to be about the Latin Rite before the reformation of the litirgy, though).

DH

[Robert A. Walker]

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.
Thank you for letting me point that out.

Smug ignorance is not a good thing.

However, this sophomoric post of yours does point out that you
understand Catholicism about as well as you understand Latin.....
That is.... Not at all.... here.

Peace.

Hypocrite.

[bob]

Lucius Alter Roberto sal.

Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: 10 Dec 2003 18:53:44 -0800
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.
Thank you for letting me point that out.

Smug ignorance is not a good thing.
However, this sophomoric post of yours does point out that you
understand Catholicism about as well as you understand Latin.....
That is.... Not at all.... here.

Peace.

Hypocrite.

Apud Patrem Apostolicum Clementem Alexandrinum haec verba legamus quae ad
Marcum Filium Iohannis pertinent:

'Scientia amat et ignaros erudit et nos docet totam creationem
omnipotentis Dei colere.' (Clem. Al. Strom. IV.xxii.cxxxix)

(hH GVWSIS AGAPAi KAI TOUS AGNOUNTAS DIDASKEI TE KAI PAIDEUEI THN PASAN
KTISIN TOU PANTAKRATOROS 8EOU TIMAN.)

Cura ut valeas.

[Gary Vellenzer]

In article <BBFD5D81.6FFC%***@ix.netcom.com>, ***@ix.netcom.com
says...

Post by bob
Lucius Alter Roberto sal.

Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: 10 Dec 2003 18:53:44 -0800
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.
Thank you for letting me point that out.

Smug ignorance is not a good thing.
However, this sophomoric post of yours does point out that you
understand Catholicism about as well as you understand Latin.....
That is.... Not at all.... here.

Peace.

Hypocrite.

Apud Patrem Apostolicum Clementem Alexandrinum haec verba legamus quae ad
'Scientia amat et ignaros erudit et nos docet totam creationem
omnipotentis Dei colere.' (Clem. Al. Strom. IV.xxii.cxxxix)
(hH GVWSIS AGAPAi KAI TOUS AGNOUNTAS DIDASKEI TE KAI PAIDEUEI THN PASAN
KTISIN TOU PANTAKRATOROS 8EOU TIMAN.)
Cura ut valeas.

All of God's creation except poor Mark Johnson, apparently.

Gary

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Gary Vellenzer
says...

Post by bob
Lucius Alter Roberto sal.

Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: 10 Dec 2003 18:53:44 -0800
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.
Thank you for letting me point that out.

Smug ignorance is not a good thing.
However, this sophomoric post of yours does point out that you
understand Catholicism about as well as you understand Latin.....
That is.... Not at all.... here.

Peace.

Hypocrite.

Apud Patrem Apostolicum Clementem Alexandrinum haec verba legamus quae ad
'Scientia amat et ignaros erudit et nos docet totam creationem
omnipotentis Dei colere.' (Clem. Al. Strom. IV.xxii.cxxxix)
(hH GVWSIS AGAPAi KAI TOUS AGNOUNTAS DIDASKEI TE KAI PAIDEUEI THN PASAN
KTISIN TOU PANTAKRATOROS 8EOU TIMAN.)
Cura ut valeas.

All of God's creation except poor Mark Johnson, apparently.

"An ergo aliam praeter religionem Dei quaerunt?
Et illi addixit sese, qui est in Coelis & terra,
sponte & coacte,
& ad eum reducentur [omnes in Judicio]."

(Alcoranus 3:83, tr. Marracci)

("addixit" - Arabicé: "aslama"; Anglicé: "surrendered")

Johannes

[bob]

Lucius Alter Gary Vellenzer sal.

Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 09:57:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading
All of God's creation except poor Mark Johnson, apparently.

Nihil desperandum.

Asinus ad lyram forsitan citharizare etiam poterit.

Valeas.

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Gary Vellenzer

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.

. . .

Post by Gary Vellenzer
All of God's creation except poor Mark Johnson, apparently.
Gary

It's called free will, Gary. You prefer the substitute. That's your
choice. But it offends God, our Creator, and our Lord.

It may be you exercising your free will. But it's an abuse of that
free will.


Peace.

---------------------------------------

One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.

[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]

[Gary Vellenzer]

In article <***@4ax.com>, 102334.12
@compuserve.com says...

Post by Mark Johnson

Post by Gary Vellenzer

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.

. . .

Post by Gary Vellenzer
All of God's creation except poor Mark Johnson, apparently.
Gary

It's called free will, Gary. You prefer the substitute. That's your
choice. But it offends God, our Creator, and our Lord.
It may be you exercising your free will. But it's an abuse of that
free will.

Huh? I said "this bob guy is spouting peace and love in order to dump on
MJ". So why do you (MJ) proceed to dump on me? Almost makes me want to
decamp and join the bobs.

Gary

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Gary Vellenzer
Huh? I said "this bob guy is spouting peace and love in order to dump on
MJ". So why do you (MJ) proceed to dump on me?

Just making the general point. My mistake for addressing it so
personally, then. But think about it. All these threads, even over in
the latin ng, go to people promoting - slyly they imagine - an
alternative, in whatever language, for the scholarship provided by
Catholics over the years. It's Islam. Or it's Protestantism. But do
you see threads based on orthodox Catholic scholarship? Surely the
Saints and Doctors wrote in Latin. How prominently are they mentioned
in these apparently quite frequent and popular religious disputes?
It's just always the same issue.

Anyway, I stand corrected, if you like.

Peace.

[Edwin Menes]

First, it's useless to quote the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church
(at least up through the Renaissance) to people who don't understand
Latin and/or Greek. Too many disputes turn on the meanings of single
words. Translations just don't cut it.

Second, alt.language.latin is not interested in religious disputes and
gets involved--only on linguistic grounds--when there is a cross-posting
to us. We may argue about translations, but we don't argue theology.
For that matter, there may be one Faith, but there is not one theology.
Compare Augustine and Aquinas, two people well within anyone's
definition of Roman orthodoxy, for illustration of this. The
implication of conspiracy is unjustified.

So, please take alt.language.latin out of future responses until you
have learned enough Latin to appreciate our responses or know enough
about Latin to ask reasonable questions, pertinent to this group.

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Edwin Menes
First, it's useless to quote the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church
(at least up through the Renaissance) to people who don't understand
Latin and/or Greek.

That's utterly ridiculous. If you have some complaint with the
translations, then explain yourself.

Post by Edwin Menes
words. Translations just don't cut it.

They always do when done by those who understand the subject, who
pray, and are competent. You want to denigrate the memory of all those
people. But I can't imagine why, except for some damned 'modern'
agenda. I mean, if you have a complaint, then make the complaint.

Post by Edwin Menes
Second, alt.language.latin is not interested in religious disputes

Could have fooled me. I was as surprized as you.

Post by Edwin Menes
to us. We may argue about translations, but we don't argue theology.

That's all you guys do. Be honest.

Post by Edwin Menes
Compare Augustine and Aquinas, two people well within anyone's
definition of Roman orthodoxy, for illustration of this. The
implication of conspiracy is unjustified.

You think that Aquinas differed with Augustine, or even other Doctors
of The Church?

You know, it might be possible. But I don't think you really had a
reason to point that out.

Post by Edwin Menes
So, please take alt.language.latin out of future responses until

Well, when you guys stop posting to the Catholic ng, hey. And when you
guys stop casting aspersions on Catholicism in the latin ng, hey.


Peace.

[Edward Casey]

Post by Mark Johnson

Post by Edwin Menes
First, it's useless to quote the Fathers and the Doctors of the Church
(at least up through the Renaissance) to people who don't understand
Latin and/or Greek.

That's utterly ridiculous. If you have some complaint with the
translations, then explain yourself.

Post by Edwin Menes
words. Translations just don't cut it.

They always do when done by those who understand the subject, who
pray, and are competent. You want to denigrate the memory of all those
people. But I can't imagine why, except for some damned 'modern'
agenda. I mean, if you have a complaint, then make the complaint.

Post by Edwin Menes
Second, alt.language.latin is not interested in religious disputes

Could have fooled me. I was as surprized as you.

Post by Edwin Menes
to us. We may argue about translations, but we don't argue theology.

That's all you guys do. Be honest.

Post by Edwin Menes
Compare Augustine and Aquinas, two people well within anyone's
definition of Roman orthodoxy, for illustration of this. The
implication of conspiracy is unjustified.

You think that Aquinas differed with Augustine, or even other Doctors
of The Church?
You know, it might be possible. But I don't think you really had a
reason to point that out.

Post by Edwin Menes
So, please take alt.language.latin out of future responses until

Well, when you guys stop posting to the Catholic ng, hey. And when you
guys stop casting aspersions on Catholicism in the latin ng, hey.
Peace.

Again, I apologize for cross-posting: it was inadvertent. Also, I retract
that "get lost." It just seemed at the time to be a more appropriate
subject line. I think that if you look in your heart you will agree that
it's not appropriate to post messages indefatigably about a matter that is
off-topic in this newsgroup. Although the Latin language has come down to
us through the Church, it is not from the Church, and, in fact antedates
it. But, since this group is not moderated, it will be possible for you to
continue as you have. If you still think it is right to do so, then by all
means continue.

Have a happy and holy Christmas.

Eduardus
(btw, does any of you oldtimers know who founded this newsgroup?)

[bob]

Lucius Alter Eduardo sal.

Post by Edward Casey
Also, I retract
that "get lost." It just seemed at the time to be a more appropriate
subject line.

Monitio tua mihi videtur aptior quam retractatio tua. Horum versuum ne
obliviscaris:

I once was lost, hut now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

Vale.

[Edward Casey]

Post by bob
Lucius Alter Eduardo sal.

Post by Edward Casey
Also, I retract
that "get lost." It just seemed at the time to be a more appropriate
subject line.

Monitio tua mihi videtur aptior quam retractatio tua. Horum versuum ne
I once was lost, hut now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.
Vale.

Fortasse verum memoras sed tamen vel iure irasci nolo. Non sum custos
huius fori neque personam gerere velim. Alios sane qui eum increpuerint
non redarguam. Dedi, abstuli.
Grates tibi habeo pro versibus sed quonam pacto inventus sum gurgustium?
;-)

Vale et tu pancratice.

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Edwin Menes
For that matter, there may be one Faith, but there is not one theology.
Compare Augustine and Aquinas, two people well within anyone's
definition of Roman orthodoxy, for illustration of this. The
implication of conspiracy is unjustified.

I just noticed this. I was watching the Midnight Mass on the Spanish
language station - because I didn't see the other local stations
carrying it - and noticed how difficult it was for His Holiness, who
used Latin in this 'new order'. Latin.

And I remember a) the vast number of complaints from 'reformists'
attempting to denigrate Latin as a useless and 'dead' language, of no
interest to nobody, and just how would they understand, then, the
first Christmas Mass in St. Peter's for 2004, and b) that people on
the Latin ng seem to believe that translations are worthless, and that
those who are not fluent in Latin cannot have any clue what the Latin
means, even when they see it translated in their missals.

Seems to me, Ed, a lot of people don't use the sense God gave them.


Merry Christmas.

---------------------------------------

One mark of a deteriorating society is when its people cannot
discern truth from lies. Another is when they don't even bother
to try and will believe whatever their itching ears want to hear.

[Cal Thomas, 4 SEP 2000]

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Mark Johnson
people on
the Latin ng seem to believe that translations are worthless, and that
those who are not fluent in Latin cannot have any clue what the Latin
means, even when they see it translated in their missals.

You appear to have developed an unfortunate habit of attributing to other
people opinions and motives of which they are innocent.

Ad te ipsum oculos reflecte et aliorum facta caveas judicare.
(Thomas à Kempis, De Imitatione Christi, I,14,1).

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/kempis/kempis1.shtml

Johannes

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by Mark Johnson
people on
the Latin ng seem to believe that translations are worthless, and that
those who are not fluent in Latin cannot have any clue what the Latin
means, even when they see it translated in their missals.

You appear to have developed an unfortunate habit of attributing to other
people opinions and motives of which they are innocent.

I could say - right back at ya.

How does that go in Latin? "Right back" would probably be, return. But
return, what? Anyway.

[Giljoyroy]

To Mark Johnson: More power to you. You hit the nail on the head. The time for
the gift of tongues is over. We have other means to make people understand
today, people, that is, who want to understand.
Yes! Yes! Inside the doctrine of the Church there is plenty of elbow room to
understand the one faith according to one's individual esperience of reality
and in accordance still with the understanding of the entire Church. Thank God
for the magisterium when my common sense defaults! I am a free thinker in the
right sense of the word: I feel very free, very free, as I think the thoughts
of the Church... My little brain is enlarged by a mind much bigger than mine.

[bob]

Lucius Alter Gary Vellenzer sal.

Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:38:14 -0500
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading
Huh? I said "this bob guy is spouting peace and love in order to dump on
MJ". So why do you (MJ) proceed to dump on me? Almost makes me want to
decamp and join the bobs.

Tu, nisi fallor, erras: Ego sum lupus solus, et Marcus Filius Iohannis, qui
sacerdos seu Pontifex Maximus est amnipotentis Dei Sterculi nec ab me nec ab
alio in merdam inhumabitur. Noster sacerdos stercoreus, noster vates
stercorosus nec stercoratione nec in sterquilinio sacris sterceiis
gracilibus eget. Stercoribus nostri Papae stercorari inspectis versus
Catulli nostri recordor:

non (ita me di ament) quicquam referre putaui,
utrumne os an culum olfacerem Aemilio.
nilo mundius hoc, hiloque immundius illud,
uerum etiam culus et melior:
nam sine dentibus est.

Pro '...sine dentibus est' fac legas 'sine vocibus est".

Ut per bellum primum crucis canebant equites, sequamur anserem!

Valeas.

[Edwin Menes]

Amnipotens Deus Sterculus? Herculem significas, qui stabulas Augeas
flumine divertendo purgavit? Hoc dicis quod noster ut merda fluat
efficit? Euge!

(Ne mihi dixeris, precor, hoc mendam esse.)

[bob]

Lucius Alter Menippo sal.

Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic,alt.language.latin
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 02:40:46 GMT
Subject: Re: The Latin response at the gospel reading
Hoc dicis quod noster ut merda fluat
efficit? Euge!

Erat Horus. Erat Chronos. Erat Zeus, Odin etiam erat. Sterculus autem mihi
videtur eximius deus pro nostro aevo, ut Theodisce dicitur 'zeitgeist'.

Cura ut valeas.

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Robert A. Walker

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://members.aol.com/liturgialatina/christmas/christmas.htm
Johannes

The big problem you have with that is that this is taken right from
the Roman Missal - from The Holy Mass.
But that isn't what you get at the parishes, these days. So you're
talking Catholicism, on the one hand, as you read in the URL, above,
and some neo-Prot substitute which bears no resemblance to it at the
trendy corner parish.

However, this sophomoric post of yours does point out that you
understand Catholicism about as well as you understand Latin.

Trust me, Robert A, that was drawn precisely from the Roman Missal.
How do I know that, Robert A? Because I, too, have a Roman Missal, and
could read the very words . . right there. The Mass is one thing. 'New
order', is of course . . something else.

As the resident 'super-Dem' on these religious ngs, I wonder that you
aren't feeling much better now that you've seen the roster of
candidates debating with Ted Koppel. Any one of them could defeat a
horrible and 'defeated' Pres. George Bush, you must imagine. Good
times, as they say.


Peace.

------------------------------------------------------------
* When one finds nothing more to say to God,
* but just knows He is there --
* that, in itself, is the best of prayers.

[Fr. John Vianney, priest of Ars township, France, 1859]

[Mark Johnson]

Post by Michael Kellogg
Can anyone help me with this? A Latin resource online that I could use
would be great for the future, too. Please cc by email. TIA!

Sure.

http://www.geocities.com/ymjcath/The_Mass.htm

Full Mass, Latin and English.


Peace.