help! i'm stuck at helen's...

[m***@gmail.com]

Hello:

I came across the following observation:

"nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa"

I understand the general idea and the translation, and wouldn't have
given her a second thought, but the grammar bugs me. Can someone
please help:

- What is the case of Helenam? -- I think it's the accusative, and
ante should take the accusative anyway. Am I correct?

- What is the case of cunnus? I think nominative.

- What is the case of taeterrima? I think it modifies cunnus and is in
the nominative as well.

- What is the case of belli? I think genitive.

- What is the case of causa? I think either nominative or else it's a
long A and it's ablative.

I'm having a problem putting it all together:

"for it had been before/over Helen..."

Can someone help! I don't understand how the sentence is constructed
grammatically.

Thanks,

Mayer

[Sebastian Hew]

Post by m***@gmail.com
"nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa"
- What is the case of Helenam? -- I think it's the accusative, and
ante should take the accusative anyway. Am I correct?

Yes.

Post by m***@gmail.com
- What is the case of cunnus? I think nominative.

Yes.

Post by m***@gmail.com
- What is the case of taeterrima? I think it modifies cunnus and is in
the nominative as well.

It is in the nominative, but consider the genders of 'taeterrima' and
'cunnus'. Is it possible that the former modifies the latter?

Post by m***@gmail.com
- What is the case of belli? I think genitive.
- What is the case of causa? I think either nominative or else it's a
long A and it's ablative.

Nominative is correct.

Post by m***@gmail.com
"for it had been before/over Helen..."

Consider more carefully what might be the subject of this sentence, before
automatically assuming a null subject. Noun phrases in the nominative abound
in this sentence. If a copulative sentence contains two noun phrases in the
nominative...

Post by m***@gmail.com
Can someone help! I don't understand how the sentence is constructed
grammatically.

See how you go with the above hints, and come back if you're still unsure.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
"nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa"

See how you go with the above hints, and come back if you're still unsure.

I'm not really sure I understood these hints, but here's a try:

belli modifies causa: causa belli is cause of war. So I'll drop belli;
causa is enough.

taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.

I think that ante Helenam modifies "cunnus taeterrima", so if I
imposed an English word order on this I could say something like
cunnus taeterrima ante Helenam.

Therefore, I think that cunnus is the subject, and the sentence is
built around "cunnus causa fuit" -- it's cunnus that is the cause.

Putting everything I removed back into the sentence, I get:

"Helen's foul cunt was the cause of war."

Is this correct?

Thanks,

Mayer

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
"nam fuit ante Helenam cunnus taeterrima belli causa"

See how you go with the above hints, and come back if you're still unsure.

belli modifies causa: causa belli is cause of war. So I'll drop belli;
causa is enough.
taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.
I think that ante Helenam modifies "cunnus taeterrima", so if I
imposed an English word order on this I could say something like
cunnus taeterrima ante Helenam.
Therefore, I think that cunnus is the subject, and the sentence is
built around "cunnus causa fuit" -- it's cunnus that is the cause.
"Helen's foul cunt was the cause of war."
Is this correct?
Thanks,
Mayer

It "attributes, metaphorically (or more accurately through synecdoche), the
cause of the Trojan War to Helen of Troy's vulva."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity

Patruus

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by m***@gmail.com
"Helen's foul cunt was the cause of war."
Is this correct?

It "attributes, metaphorically (or more accurately through synecdoche), the
cause of the Trojan War to Helen of Troy's vulva."

I understand the general meaning. I was wondering about the exact
syntactic analysis. Specifically, taeterrima modifies cunnus here,
right?

I have not yet seen many different KINDS of sentences in Latin. This
is the first of this kind and it threw me off for a while. Other than
that I have no specific interest in Helen, her foul whatever, etc. I
arrived at this sentence via "Vulgar Latin" -> "Latin Profanity" at
the Wikipedia, out of curiosity and mild amusement. I will, however,
contribute to the spreading of Latin by no longer saying "shit" or
"merd" and just sticking to newly discovered "merda". :-)

Mayer

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by m***@gmail.com
"Helen's foul cunt was the cause of war."
Is this correct?

It "attributes, metaphorically (or more accurately through synecdoche), the
cause of the Trojan War to Helen of Troy's vulva."

I understand the general meaning. I was wondering about the exact
syntactic analysis. Specifically, taeterrima modifies cunnus here,
right?

But "cunnus" is masculine. Grammatically "taeterrima" modies "causa" - "the
foulest cause of war".

Post by m***@gmail.com
I have not yet seen many different KINDS of sentences in Latin. This
is the first of this kind and it threw me off for a while. Other than
that I have no specific interest in Helen, her foul whatever, etc. I
arrived at this sentence via "Vulgar Latin" -> "Latin Profanity" at
the Wikipedia, out of curiosity and mild amusement. I will, however,
contribute to the spreading of Latin by no longer saying "shit" or
"merd" and just sticking to newly discovered "merda". :-)

Cave cophinum stercore plenum ne in caput effunderetur!

Post by m***@gmail.com
Mayer

Patruus

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by m***@gmail.com
I understand the general meaning. I was wondering about the exact
syntactic analysis. Specifically, taeterrima modifies cunnus here,
right?

But "cunnus" is masculine. Grammatically "taeterrima" modies "causa" - "the
foulest cause of war".

Yeah, in the end I figured that taeterrima modifies causa. I haven't
yet seen this form taeterrima. I found taeter, taetra, taetrum so I
figured they're related, but didn't know how. What is this called,
this grammatical category of the comparative strengths of adjectives?
There's a term for this. I'll study the topic specifically.

Post by Johannes Patruus
Cave cophinum stercore plenum ne in caput effunderetur!

Oh boy! I'll work on this in a couple of hours... :-)

Mayer

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by m***@gmail.com
I understand the general meaning. I was wondering about the exact
syntactic analysis. Specifically, taeterrima modifies cunnus here,
right?

But "cunnus" is masculine. Grammatically "taeterrima" modies "causa" - "the
foulest cause of war".

Yeah, in the end I figured that taeterrima modifies causa. I haven't
yet seen this form taeterrima. I found taeter, taetra, taetrum so I
figured they're related, but didn't know how. What is this called,
this grammatical category of the comparative strengths of adjectives?
There's a term for this.

Superlative, nonne?

I'll study the topic specifically.

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Johannes Patruus
Cave cophinum stercore plenum ne in caput effunderetur!

Oh boy! I'll work on this in a couple of hours... :-)

Iterum cave! - you may live to regret it. (It's what happened to Bibulus in
the Forum when he opposed Caesar's agrarian law.)

Post by m***@gmail.com
Mayer

Patruus

[Johannes Patruus]

Cave ... ne ... effunderetur!

Duh!

Cave ... ne ... effundatur!

Doh!

Patruus

[Sebastian Hew]

Post by m***@gmail.com
belli modifies causa: causa belli is cause of war. So I'll drop belli;
causa is enough.

Good.

Post by m***@gmail.com
taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.

Does it? 'Taeterrima' is feminine and 'cunnus' is masculine.
Nevertheless, dropping 'taeterrima' is not a bad idea.

Post by m***@gmail.com
I think that ante Helenam modifies "cunnus taeterrima", so if I
imposed an English word order on this I could say something like
cunnus taeterrima ante Helenam.

I would have said that 'ante Helenam' modified the entire clause.

Post by m***@gmail.com
Therefore, I think that cunnus is the subject, and the sentence is
built around "cunnus causa fuit" -- it's cunnus that is the cause.

Excellent.

Post by m***@gmail.com
"Helen's foul cunt was the cause of war."

Even taking 'ante Helenam' with 'cunnus', I'm not sure how you interpret it
as a possessive. Otherwise, taking into account the comments already made,
the translation is fine, but for 'nam' having been left out.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.

Does it? 'Taeterrima' is feminine and 'cunnus' is masculine.
Nevertheless, dropping 'taeterrima' is not a bad idea.

Ouch! That's a stupid oversight. Sorry. Well, there are only two
feminines in the sentence: Helen, in the accusative, and causa, in the
nominative. Therefore surprisingly enough [to me], taeterrima should
modify causa, resulting in "the filthy cause of war". This actually
sounds better and makes more sense than speaking of Helen's
taeterrimus cunnus. :-) Sorry. I still cannot understand the choice of
word order, unless Horatio was trying to emphasise the absurdity of
the situation, where something as awful as war can result from
something as banal as Helen's private parts.

What I understand so far is:

nam fuit cunnus taeterrima belli causa.

So what about the ante Helenam? Ante takes the accusative, and the
only possibility left IMO is cunnus ante Helenam. But this sounds
weird. Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the genitive and say
cunnus helenae?

Sorry for being picky about it, but I suppose I'm going to run into
many similar sentences and I need to have a good understanding of the
syntax.

Thanks,

Mayer

[Sebastian Hew]

Post by m***@gmail.com
nam fuit cunnus taeterrima belli causa.
So what about the ante Helenam? Ante takes the accusative, and the
only possibility left IMO is cunnus ante Helenam. But this sounds
weird. Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the genitive and say
cunnus helenae?

Somehow, I get the feeling that you're not reading my posts in their
entirety. In my first reply, I pointed out that 'taeterrima' might not
modify 'cunnus', yet you persisted with it, and in my second, I did treat
the matter of 'ante Helenam'. All I will add for the moment is that if you
want the translation to be 'Helen's c___', then the genitive case is indeed
the one to use, which suggests that this might not be the right translation.

Post by m***@gmail.com
Sorry for being picky about it, but I suppose I'm going to run into
many similar sentences and I need to have a good understanding of the
syntax.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
So what about the ante Helenam? Ante takes the accusative, and the
only possibility left IMO is cunnus ante Helenam. But this sounds
weird. Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the genitive and say
cunnus helenae?

Somehow, I get the feeling that you're not reading my posts in their
entirety. In my first reply, I pointed out that 'taeterrima' might not
modify 'cunnus', yet you persisted with it, and in my second, I did treat
the matter of 'ante Helenam'. All I will add for the moment is that if you
want the translation to be 'Helen's c___', then the genitive case is indeed
the one to use, which suggests that this might not be the right translation.

In my reply I corrected myself and said that taeterrima modifies the
only feminine noun in the nominative, which was causa.

Re ante Helenam, you wrote that you would have thought that it
"modified the entire clause". I think I have a problem understanding
which clause you're talking about.

Kind regards,

Mayer

[Sebastian Hew]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Sebastian Hew
Somehow, I get the feeling that you're not reading my posts in their
entirety. In my first reply, I pointed out that 'taeterrima' might not
modify 'cunnus', yet you persisted with it, and in my second, I did treat
the matter of 'ante Helenam'. All I will add for the moment is that if you
want the translation to be 'Helen's c___', then the genitive case is indeed
the one to use, which suggests that this might not be the right translation.

In my reply I corrected myself and said that taeterrima modifies the
only feminine noun in the nominative, which was causa.

Yes, but only after the second time I pointed it out.

Post by m***@gmail.com
Re ante Helenam, you wrote that you would have thought that it
"modified the entire clause". I think I have a problem understanding
which clause you're talking about.

Consider a sentence like: 'I took orders after the war.' The subject is the
noun phrase 'I' and the object is the noun phrase 'orders'. The
prepositional phrase 'after the war' modifies neither the subject nor the
object, but rather, the entire clause as an adverbial. Likewise, 'ante
Helenam' should be taken neither with the subject nor the object, but rather
with the entire clause.

[B. T. Raven]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.

Does it? 'Taeterrima' is feminine and 'cunnus' is masculine.
Nevertheless, dropping 'taeterrima' is not a bad idea.

Ouch! That's a stupid oversight. Sorry. Well, there are only two
feminines in the sentence: Helen, in the accusative, and causa, in the
nominative. Therefore surprisingly enough [to me], taeterrima should
modify causa, resulting in "the filthy cause of war". This actually
sounds better and makes more sense than speaking of Helen's
taeterrimus cunnus. :-) Sorry. I still cannot understand the choice of
word order, unless Horatio was trying to emphasise the absurdity of
the situation, where something as awful as war can result from
something as banal as Helen's private parts.
nam fuit cunnus taeterrima belli causa.
So what about the ante Helenam? Ante takes the accusative, and the
only possibility left IMO is cunnus ante Helenam. But this sounds
weird. Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the genitive and say
cunnus helenae?
Sorry for being picky about it, but I suppose I'm going to run into
many similar sentences and I need to have a good understanding of the
syntax.
Thanks,
Mayer

Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as "the
cause of hideous war."

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by B. T. Raven

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Sebastian Hew

Post by m***@gmail.com
taeterrima modifies cunnus, so I'll drop it and remain with cunnus.

Does it? 'Taeterrima' is feminine and 'cunnus' is masculine.
Nevertheless, dropping 'taeterrima' is not a bad idea.

Ouch! That's a stupid oversight. Sorry. Well, there are only two
feminines in the sentence: Helen, in the accusative, and causa, in the
nominative. Therefore surprisingly enough [to me], taeterrima should
modify causa, resulting in "the filthy cause of war". This actually
sounds better and makes more sense than speaking of Helen's
taeterrimus cunnus. :-) Sorry. I still cannot understand the choice of
word order, unless Horatio was trying to emphasise the absurdity of
the situation, where something as awful as war can result from
something as banal as Helen's private parts.
nam fuit cunnus taeterrima belli causa.
So what about the ante Helenam? Ante takes the accusative, and the
only possibility left IMO is cunnus ante Helenam. But this sounds
weird. Why wouldn't it make more sense to use the genitive and say
cunnus helenae?
Sorry for being picky about it, but I suppose I'm going to run into
many similar sentences and I need to have a good understanding of the
syntax.
Thanks,
Mayer

Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as
"the cause of hideous war."

An instance of "hypallage"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypallage)

Patruus

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as
"the cause of hideous war."

An instance of "hypallage"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypallage)

Ouch! That's new to me. :-( Are these common in Latin prose? Can you
give some reasonably simple examples of this? At what point in a 4-
year Latin program would one normally encounter hypallages?

Thanks,

Mayer

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Johannes Patruus

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as
"the cause of hideous war."

An instance of "hypallage"? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypallage)

Ouch! That's new to me. :-( Are these common in Latin prose? Can you
give some reasonably simple examples of this?

I have seen it characterised as "almost entirely confined to poetry".

The stock example is Aeneid III.61 where "dare classibus austros" (to give
winds to the fleets) is said to be a hypallage for "dare classes austris"
(to give the fleets to the winds).
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hypallage%22%20classibus%20classes

And of course Hungry Horace can't resist a spin on the bandwagon:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hypallage%22%20horace

Post by m***@gmail.com
At what point in a 4-year Latin program would one normally
encounter hypallages?

If and when it gets round to doing large chunks of Virgil.

Patruus

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as "the
cause of hideous war."

What's basta?

The cause of the [most] hideous war should be causa belli taeterrimum,
shouldn't it?

As I said, my problem is not how best to translate the sentence into
English -- there are plenty of translations that get the gist of
things. My only concern here is to understand the syntax of the
sentence (and figure out why this wasn't clear to me earlier).

Thanks!

Mayer

[B. T. Raven]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also, although
taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in English as "the
cause of hideous war."

What's basta?

It is non-Yiddish for enough already. I lost my patience because I sensed
(scents) that you were getting off over the endlesss repetition of cunnus.
(This is a masculine part of a feminine being just as a mentula is a
feminine part of a masculine being.

Post by m***@gmail.com
The cause of the [most] hideous war should be causa belli taeterrimum,
shouldn't it?

No. ... belli taeterrimi. I'm not sure it's hypallage but I suspect that it
is part of a poet's vocation to do violence to language.

Post by m***@gmail.com
As I said, my problem is not how best to translate the sentence into
English -- there are plenty of translations that get the gist of
things. My only concern here is to understand the syntax of the
sentence (and figure out why this wasn't clear to me earlier).

Without understanding the grammar and syntax you are not at the point yet of
getting the gist. If all the single words of a sentence are looked up in the
dictionary (and even memorized so that their meanings can all be held in the
mind simultaneously)all you really have at that point is a farrago of
impressions.

Post by m***@gmail.com
Thanks!
Mayer

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by B. T. Raven
It is non-Yiddish for enough already. I lost my patience because I sensed
(scents) that you were getting off over the endlesss repetition of cunnus.

Actually no. I find this makes the whole discussion of syntax ever the
more embarrassing, and if I knew how to add a tag like <font
color='red'>...</font> into this post, you would see me blush. I used
this word in this thread more times than I had probably used it in the
past year.

BTW, I know no Yiddish.

Post by B. T. Raven
Without understanding the grammar and syntax you are not at the point yet of
getting the gist. If all the single words of a sentence are looked up in the
dictionary (and even memorized so that their meanings can all be held in the
mind simultaneously)all you really have at that point is a farrago of
impressions.

I found (finally!) the source of my confusion about this awful
sentence. It really turned out to be a simple confusion: When I read
"ante Helenam" I was thinking of ante in the spacial sense of standing
before something, and not in the temporal sense of happening before
the times of Helen. Once this piece of the puzzle fell into place the
whole sentence makes sense and the meaning is clear: "For even before
the times of Helen, ..."

Sorry for irritating you and Sebastian, but this was a good lesson for
me. :-)

Thanks for your help!

Mayer

[dalek]

Post by B. T. Raven

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also,
although taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in
English as "the cause of hideous war."

What's basta?

It is non-Yiddish for enough already. I lost my patience because I

Actually, "basta" is the Italian word for enough. Interesting that I can't
find a Latin equivalent for it. :)

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by dalek

Post by B. T. Raven

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also,
although taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in
English as "the cause of hideous war."

What's basta?

It is non-Yiddish for enough already. I lost my patience because I

Actually, "basta" is the Italian word for enough. Interesting that I can't
find a Latin equivalent for it. :)

"Basta" is said to exist in Late Vulgar Latin and to be derived from Arabic:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22ar%20basta%22%20jstor%20vulgar

Patruus

[B. T. Raven]

Post by dalek

Post by B. T. Raven

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by B. T. Raven
Basta! Helen's wasn't the first one to bring about war. Also,
although taeterrima does modify causa it seems to work out better in
English as "the cause of hideous war."

What's basta?

It is non-Yiddish for enough already. I lost my patience because I

Actually, "basta" is the Italian word for enough. Interesting that I can't
find a Latin equivalent for it. :)

Satis superque.