Discussion:
what does 'cognite' mean?
(too old to reply)
f***@hotmail.com
2005-11-08 13:43:47 UTC
Permalink
dear all,

This probably is a really easy one - but what does 'cognite' mean -
It's just that I've checked 'cognosco' (and similar words) in
dictionaries and the web to see if it has an irregular imperative, but
have found nothing mentioned, despite the fact that it seems to a
much-employed form.

It reads and looks like an imperative, and the context seems to suggest
this too, but shouldn't the imperative of 'cognosco' be 'cognosce' or
'cognoscite' rather than be based on the supine stem as is 'cognite'?

regards

jules
B. T. Raven
2005-11-08 15:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
dear all,
This probably is a really easy one - but what does 'cognite' mean -
It's just that I've checked 'cognosco' (and similar words) in
dictionaries and the web to see if it has an irregular imperative, but
have found nothing mentioned, despite the fact that it seems to a
much-employed form.
It reads and looks like an imperative, and the context seems to suggest
this too, but shouldn't the imperative of 'cognosco' be 'cognosce' or
'cognoscite' rather than be based on the supine stem as is 'cognite'?
regards
jules
Yes, you're right. Why not give the context? Then it will be easy to
determine whether it's good Latin or bad Latin. It sounds like a
vocative to me.

Eduardus
Grant Hicks
2005-11-08 15:55:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@hotmail.com
dear all,
This probably is a really easy one - but what does 'cognite' mean -
It's just that I've checked 'cognosco' (and similar words) in
dictionaries and the web to see if it has an irregular imperative, but
have found nothing mentioned, despite the fact that it seems to a
much-employed form.
It reads and looks like an imperative, and the context seems to suggest
this too, but shouldn't the imperative of 'cognosco' be 'cognosce' or
'cognoscite' rather than be based on the supine stem as is 'cognite'?
regards
jules
What exactly _is_ the context?

Grant
f***@hotmail.com
2005-11-08 16:20:04 UTC
Permalink
sorry, I'm using my workplace for internet access and forgot to bring
the book with me this morning - I'll type up the passage as soon as I
can.

Jules
f***@hotmail.com
2005-11-09 07:50:59 UTC
Permalink
here's the passage

Oh mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
cognite, res postquam procubere meae
usibus edocto si quicquam credis amico
vive tibi et longe nomina magna fuge.

jules
Aug. de Man
2005-11-09 08:22:11 UTC
Permalink
"Jules"
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Oh mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
cognite, res postquam procubere meae
usibus edocto si quicquam credis amico
vive tibi et longe nomina magna fuge.
'cognitus' - from 'cognoscere'

Et in secundo cognitus est Ioseph a fratribus suis
And at the second time, Joseph was known by his brethren

and from 'cognitus' you can make 'cognite':

1. vocativus: (Ov. Tristia III, 4, 2)
O mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
cognite, res postquam procubuere meae:
You, who were always dear to me, but certainly now in these hard times,
after my affairs went wrong
2. adverb: in a known, recognized way
3. in a text where ae is written as e it could stand for 'cognitae'.

August dM.
Aug. de Man
2005-11-09 08:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aug. de Man
O mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
You, who were always dear to me, but whom I have certainly recognized
as a friend now in these hard times, after my affairs went wrong

AugdM.


----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Aug. de Man" <audeman a. wanadoo p. nl>
Nieuwsgroepen: alt.language.latin
Verzonden: woensdag 9 november 2005 9:22
Onderwerp: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
Post by Aug. de Man
"Jules"
Post by f***@hotmail.com
Oh mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
cognite, res postquam procubere meae
usibus edocto si quicquam credis amico
vive tibi et longe nomina magna fuge.
'cognitus' - from 'cognoscere'
Et in secundo cognitus est Ioseph a fratribus suis
And at the second time, Joseph was known by his brethren
1. vocativus: (Ov. Tristia III, 4, 2)
O mihi care quidem semper, sed tempore duro
You, who were always dear to me, but certainly now in these hard times,
after my affairs went wrong
2. adverb: in a known, recognized way
3. in a text where ae is written as e it could stand for 'cognitae'.
August dM.
i***@bellsouth.net
2005-11-26 01:40:41 UTC
Permalink
So what you are all saying is that the e changes the ADJ to an adv same as
ment in Spanish or French or in English ly or ily.

COGNITE ADV of cognitus
(
cognitus, cognita, cognitum
known (from experience/carnally), tried/proved; noted,
acknowledged/recognized
)
ADJ of cognitus
(
cognosco, cognoscere, cognovi, cognitus V TRANS
become acquainted with/aware of; recognize; learn, find to be;
inquire/examine;
)

but also

COGNITE vocative of cognitus
(
cognosco, cognoscere, cognovi, cognitus V TRANS
become acquainted with/aware of; recognize; learn, find to be;
inquire/examine;
)
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-27 13:27:38 UTC
Permalink
(I apologise if things look strange in this posting; I can't get this
group on my university's nntp server, so I'm using Google for the first
time!)
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
So what you are all saying is that the e changes the ADJ to an adv same as
ment in Spanish or French or in English ly or ily.
This is correct (although you mean -mente in Spanish, not -ment). This
-e is, however, always long (except in a few, very old and common words
like 'bene', which show the expected iambic shortening). It is not as
productive as you might think; Latin usually prefers not to use adverbs
of this sort if alternatives are available.
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
COGNITE ADV of cognitus
...
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
but also
COGNITE vocative of cognitus
The difference between these two is that in the first, the adverb, the
final vowel -e is long, whereas in the latter, the vowel is always
short.

I would also point out that the adverb 'cognite', while formed in
accordance with the proper rules, is not to my knowledge a word in
Latin that exists. (In the same way, 'superlunarily' is a well-formed
adverb from the English adjective 'superlunary', but does not exist).
Any adverb from 'cognitus' would be as absurd in Latin as 'knownly'
would be in English; I invite citations from those who know me to be
wrong.

The only real option for 'cognite' is as the masculine singular
vocative of the adjective 'cognitus', meaning '(you who are) known'.

This is confirmed by the scansion of the line in question: 'cognite,
res postquam procubuere meae'. This scans as two hemiepes cola (ie.
'dactylic pentameter'), or two times the pattern {long short short long
short short long}. Therefore, the last syllable of 'cognite' must scan
as short, only possible if the vowel is short.

Neeraj Mathur
bob
2005-11-27 19:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: 27 Nov 2005 05:27:38 -0800
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
I would also point out that the adverb 'cognite', while formed in
accordance with the proper rules, is not to my knowledge a word in
Latin that exists. (In the same way, 'superlunarily' is a well-formed
adverb from the English adjective 'superlunary', but does not exist).
Any adverb from 'cognitus' would be as absurd in Latin as 'knownly'
would be in English; I invite citations from those who know me to be
wrong.
Whether you are 'wrong' or merely hasty or perhaps simply narrow in your
consideration of 'existence' I will leave to the philosophers. However, I do
offer the following:


...cognite... Facund., defens. 9.3. [Migne v. 67])

Souter glosses it as 'knowingly'.

I also think (but without the benefit of an immediate citation) that the
word occurs with fair regularity among scholastic writers.

Regarding 'superlunarily' (or, for that matter, 'sublunarily)', as you say,
the formation is quite normal. However, to say that it "does not exist" is
really not quite accurate. All that can be said with any certainty is that
the reader(s) for that section of the OED didn't report the form. But that,
I fear, is a rather narrow understanding of 'existence'. Ýhere are thousands
of words and expressions, technical, scientific, regional, argot etc. which
are not to be found in the OED. As an example - which I have not checked - I
would be surprised if 'chickenhawk' in the sense of an older man who
patronizes young boys and pays for their sexual favors has made it past the
scrutiny of the OED readers. And it is similar for 'wrinklehawk', a flap or
tear in a sleeve caused by snagging it on a branch or a bramble. And then we
have words like that fine old cutting instrument, the 'fro(e)' which would
be unrecognizable to most speakers of standard English, but which is
displayed prominently in Faulkner. I doubt that the OED's readers have
included 'Buckinger's Boot', meaning vagina, or 'chicken' or 'turkey'
meaning penis, or expressions like 'ckoke the chicken' or 'box the Jesuit',
meaning to masturbate. And of course there are curiosities out of time like
'whaleroad' which Robert Lowell has fastforwarded a thousand years or so
into "The Quaker Graveyard in Nantucket, a use of kenning which, I think,
might have struck the ancient carousers of the meodsehtla superlunarily
rather than sublunarily.

So, while I wouldn't venture that you are 'wrong', I might suggest that you
are incomplete.

Bob

Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-28 00:45:57 UTC
Permalink
From: bob <***@ix.netcom.com> - Find messages by this author
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:06:05 GMT
Post by bob
Whether you are 'wrong' or merely hasty or perhaps simply narrow in your
consideration of 'existence' I will leave to the philosophers. However, I do
...cognite... Facund., defens. 9.3. [Migne v. 67])
Souter glosses it as 'knowingly'.
I also think (but without the benefit of an immediate citation) that the
word occurs with fair regularity among scholastic writers.
I don't think the philosophers need to be worried about this much at
all: the issue is a linguistic one, and nothing more. Fortuitously, I
am a linguist.

When it comes to modern living languages, the question of whether or
not a given well-formed unit is a word or not is almost as fraught as
trying to define 'word' itself, but nevertheless certain guidelines do
apply. Your 'superlunarily' and 'sublunarily' in the above were
obviously tongue-in-cheek. Similarly, in last week's tutorial essay I
used the phrase 'Principatical powers' to describe the trib. pot. and
maius imperium: there is no other single word that has all and only the
correct connotations in English ('imperial' is the closest, but hardly
appropriate). I applied my derivational morphology and created an
adjective from the noun I needed, 'Principate'; the result, however, is
not an English word. I was conscious of that while I created it, and my
tutor was when she gave it a squiggly line and an exclamation mark.
What it boils down to is grammaticality judgements: no native speaker
of English (at least of the British or North American standards) will
judge 'Principatical' to be acceptable as a word of their language,
well before they've looked at the OED, and whether or not they
understand its intended meaning.

When it comes to Latin, however, we have no native speakers available
to give us grammaticality judgements and intutions. As such, we turn to
corpus methods instead. (Some linguists prefer corpus-based methods
even with living languages, not trusting the intuition of the native
speaker.) With Latin, the corpus to be considered is fixed and limited:
it consists of those texts which we have access to that were written by
native speakers of the language. This includes the poems, plays,
speeches, letters, inscriptions, and so on that have survived. It
excludes everything written by people whose native speech was something
other than Latin - that means all mediaeval scholastic and religious
texts are out, as are neo-Latin poems and treatises. We are
exceptionally lucky with regards to Latin and Greek in that the
native-speaker-produced corpora themselves are huge and diverse, enough
to consider them adequately representative of the languages

Now, I am extremely puzzled by the example you have given me (requoted
above). I will confess in the first place that I don't understand it at
all. It seems to be a fragmentary text of some description. I don't
have any copy of Migne to hand (is this from 'Patrologia Latina'?), nor
have I ever looked at his work. Could you, then, please provide some
more context for this citation? I am particularly interested in its
provenance: when and where did this text appear, and what are our
sources for its attestation.

If indeed this example is from an author whose native language was
Latin, and it has been preserved properly with no confusion about this
particular word, and further that the only interpretation that is
consistent with the situation is to take it as an adverb, I will gladly
admit what you kindly euphemize as my 'over-hastiness'. Ditto if
anybody can find another example from the corpus as defined above.

On the other hand, if no such examples exist - given the size and range
of the Latin corpus - there would be a strong case to be made for my
claim that the word did not exist in Latin. (This seems to bother you:
it is perfectly consistent to say that the existence of morphology and
roots to apply those rules to does not imply that all possible forms
for all roots exist. Arabic is an easy example, where of the ten
possible derived forms from each verbal root, not a single verb exists
which shows all ten. Indo-European was largely similar: not all verbs
showed every category, and there was a large amount of paradigm-filling
in the daughter languages, which explains the large variations between
the languages as to what categories were chosen to fill, with Greek and
Sanskrit representing one extreme and Germanic, with its two-tense
system, the other.)

Neeraj Mathur
B. T. Raven
2005-11-28 05:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:06:05 GMT
Post by bob
Whether you are 'wrong' or merely hasty or perhaps simply narrow in your
consideration of 'existence' I will leave to the philosophers. However, I do
...cognite... Facund., defens. 9.3. [Migne v. 67])
Souter glosses it as 'knowingly'.
I also think (but without the benefit of an immediate citation) that the
word occurs with fair regularity among scholastic writers.
I don't think the philosophers need to be worried about this much at
all: the issue is a linguistic one, and nothing more. Fortuitously, I
am a linguist.
When it comes to modern living languages, the question of whether or
not a given well-formed unit is a word or not is almost as fraught as
trying to define 'word' itself, but nevertheless certain guidelines do
apply. Your 'superlunarily' and 'sublunarily' in the above were
obviously tongue-in-cheek.
Let us speculate more sublunarily about what might "be" or not "be" a
word. There was a time when every single vocable (no exceptions) of
every language now spoken was not (yet) a word. Each word was spoken (or
written) for the first time by someone and, dis volentibus, imitated by
enough other people that it gradually became current. For example, if
students and teachers of the early Roman empire adopt "principatical" en
masse, then what had not been a word will automagically become a word. I
would try to persuade them to use "principative" instead but if their
charm quotient is high enough then "principatical" it will be.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Similarly, in last week's tutorial essay I
used the phrase 'Principatical powers' to describe the trib. pot. and
maius imperium: there is no other single word that has all and only the
correct connotations in English ('imperial' is the closest, but hardly
appropriate). I applied my derivational morphology and created an
adjective from the noun I needed, 'Principate'; the result, however, is
not an English word. I was conscious of that while I created it, and my
tutor was when she gave it a squiggly line and an exclamation mark.
What it boils down to is grammaticality judgements: no native speaker
of English (at least of the British or North American standards) will
judge 'Principatical' to be acceptable as a word of their language,
well before they've looked at the OED, and whether or not they
understand its intended meaning.
If that's true then it's probably because most English words ending
in -atical are from Greek rather than Latin. So grammatical judgements
are no help. The appositeness of a neologism will depend more on the
imaginative use of analogy than on rules.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
When it comes to Latin, however, we have no native speakers available
to give us grammaticality judgements and intutions. As such, we turn to
corpus methods instead. (Some linguists prefer corpus-based methods
even with living languages, not trusting the intuition of the native
speaker.) With Latin, the corpus to be considered is fixed and
it consists of those texts which we have access to that were written by
native speakers of the language. This includes the poems, plays,
speeches, letters, inscriptions, and so on that have survived. It
excludes everything written by people whose native speech was
something
Post by Neeraj Mathur
other than Latin - that means all mediaeval scholastic and religious
texts are out, as are neo-Latin poems and treatises. We are
exceptionally lucky with regards to Latin and Greek in that the
native-speaker-produced corpora themselves are huge and diverse, enough
to consider them adequately representative of the languages
The term Latin (tout court) should probably be reserved for what might
be called Latinitas aeterna, that is what it was and has been from the
time of Ennius to to that of the latest Vatican documents (possibly with
some of its more bizarre growths liberally pruned). This means that
every flavor of Latin should be qualified in some way (pre-Plautine, Cl.
Latin, High Medieval, Neo-, what not). If Classical philologists insist
on using "Latin" as if it were synonymous with Classical Latin (or
worse, with Caesarean or Ciceronian Latin) then let them talk among
themselves and to no-one else. What Thomas Watson imprudently said about
a world market for 5 computers is certainly true of the Classical
philologists: 4 or 5 will suffice for a planet but we need about 500,000
Latin teachers (people, that is, who speak, understand, write, and read
the vanilla variety of the Latin language).
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Now, I am extremely puzzled by the example you have given me (requoted
above). I will confess in the first place that I don't understand it at
all. It seems to be a fragmentary text of some description. I don't
have any copy of Migne to hand (is this from 'Patrologia Latina'?), nor
have I ever looked at his work. Could you, then, please provide some
more context for this citation? I am particularly interested in its
provenance: when and where did this text appear, and what are our
sources for its attestation.
If indeed this example is from an author whose native language was
Latin, and it has been preserved properly with no confusion about this
particular word, and further that the only interpretation that is
consistent with the situation is to take it as an adverb, I will gladly
admit what you kindly euphemize as my 'over-hastiness'. Ditto if
anybody can find another example from the corpus as defined above.
Why do you need another example? Is the "existence" of hapax legomena
any fuzzier than that of words with thousands of attestations? Indeed,
if Latin is to have any future then there is no such thing as tota
Latinitas. As much of it again is in the future as in the past, at least
as far as Latin designations for the phenomena of modern life might need
to be coined. For instance, I wanted to say "fox terrier" in Latin so I
concocted this string of lettersounds: canis terrarius vulpipeta. I
don't know what the zoologists say but it's probably not that. My
dictionaries don't mention 'vulpipeta,' so, according to some, it's not
a Latin word. Google knows nothing of it. The questions then arise: what
is it? is it well-formed, does it economically express the thing, etc.
To the Ciceronians no questions at all arise, only the apodictic
pronouncement: nicht klassisch!
Post by Neeraj Mathur
On the other hand, if no such examples exist - given the size and range
of the Latin corpus - there would be a strong case to be made for my
it is perfectly consistent to say that the existence of morphology and
roots to apply those rules to does not imply that all possible forms
for all roots exist. Arabic is an easy example, where of the ten
possible derived forms from each verbal root, not a single verb exists
which shows all ten. Indo-European was largely similar: not all verbs
showed every category, and there was a large amount of
paradigm-filling
Post by Neeraj Mathur
in the daughter languages, which explains the large variations between
the languages as to what categories were chosen to fill, with Greek and
Sanskrit representing one extreme and Germanic, with its two-tense
system, the other.)
Neeraj Mathur
And what do you deduce from this and, more importantly, why do you think
it's useful to try to deduce anything at all from it?

Eduardus
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-28 23:20:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Let us speculate more sublunarily about what might "be" or not "be" a
word. There was a time when every single vocable (no exceptions) of
every language now spoken was not (yet) a word. Each word was spoken (or
written) for the first time by someone and, dis volentibus, imitated by
enough other people that it gradually became current. [snip example]
If this is meant to be a musing on the origin of spoken language, I
have nothing to say about it - most linguists accept that their data
can only take them back to periods when languages were already very
well developed. If it is meant to be something different, then it takes
a far too simplistic approach in the way that it completely ignores
historical linguistics! At any rate, it says suitably little that
there's nothing in it for me to challenge. (There are actual linguistic
issues that are similar and may be of interest to you, if you're
interested in this sort of thing: at sci.lang right now there's a
discussion going about the process of how foreign words become a part
of a language's vocabulary, though as of yesterday little of interest
had been said, other than restatements of the data.)

Anyway, all I'd ask you to do is to consider the implications of what
you've said.You stated that people 'imitate' a neologism (your example
was the 'Principatical' of my essay, though you preferred
'principative') until it 'gradually becomes current'. This requires
native speakers among whom it can become current, and further, it does
a disservice to an appreciation of those neologisms in the first place.
As an example, take 'jabberwocky'. Native speakers of English are
likely to interpret this as 'nonsense, something meaningless' or
something of the sort; it is fair enough to consider this a 'word' of
English by now. On the other hand, in order to appreciate Lewis Carroll
properly, we need to keep in mind that the word originates with him,
and the effect of the passage in question depends on the word having no
meaning. The same is true even of well-formed neologisms, like Sholes'
'type-writer' (all of the morphemes are older than his 1868 invention).
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
What it boils down to is grammaticality judgements: no native speaker
of English (at least of the British or North American standards) will
judge 'Principatical' to be acceptable as a word of their language,
well before they've looked at the OED, and whether or not they
understand its intended meaning.
If that's true then it's probably because most English words ending
in -atical are from Greek rather than Latin. So grammatical judgements
are no help.
This is decidedly not correct. Native English speakers have *no idea*
whatsoever about the etymologies of their words (unless they've studied
them); at most, there is a [+foreign] marker in some varieties of
English (I think there is in American English, but I'm less convinced
about British English). Certainly, nobody has the ability of telling
the difference between a Latin and a Greek root as the result purely of
their L1 learning of English. (Ask yourself how this would be possible,
when almost all Greek in English has arrived through a Latin filter at
some stage; the -ical ending even requires such a Latin filter, as it
combines a Greek -ikos with a Latin -alem.)

But it wouldn't matter: do you think that native speakers of English
would be more accepting of 'Principative'? I doubt it; I'll try and
work it into something I write for my tutor and see how she reacts.
Post by B. T. Raven
The term Latin (tout court) should probably be reserved for what might
be called Latinitas aeterna, that is what it was and has been from the
time of Ennius to to that of the latest Vatican documents (possibly with
some of its more bizarre growths liberally pruned). This means that
every flavor of Latin should be qualified in some way (pre-Plautine, Cl.
Latin, High Medieval, Neo-, what not).
If you want to study all of the above literature, you shall not find me
stopping or questioning you. I am a linguist; the object of my study is
(and the statement I made that began this concerns) the Latin language;
I can only obtain reliable data about this language through documents
left by native speakers. After the native speakers were gone (or more
accurately, once their language had changed to the extent that they
needed to learn the language of their written documents as an L2), the
thing called 'Latin' is something of a mathematical abstraction based
on schoolmasters' grammar texts.

A parallel example is in Sanskrit. The vast bulk of what Indologists
consider 'Sanskrit Literature' - including some of the most interesting
material, such as the epics and various law texts - were written well
after Sanskrit was a dead language. All of these people learned
Sanskrit as an L2. Therefore, all of the data that comes out of this is
worthless to the linguist. Their language is based on the abstraction
that is the grammar of Panini. It might be interesting literature, it
might be worth study - but it's of no value to questions of Sanskrit
linguistics.
Post by B. T. Raven
If Classical philologists insist
on using "Latin" as if it were synonymous with Classical Latin (or
worse, with Caesarean or Ciceronian Latin) then let them talk among
themselves and to no-one else. What Thomas Watson imprudently said about
a world market for 5 computers is certainly true of the Classical
philologists: 4 or 5 will suffice for a planet but we need about 500,000
Latin teachers (people, that is, who speak, understand, write, and read
the vanilla variety of the Latin language).
Alright. I don't know what spirit you wrote this in, but if this is a
request that I leave this group permanently, my views and interests not
being amenable to the core posters here and my messages devoid of all
value, then this post will be my last here.
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
If indeed this example is from an author whose native language was
Latin, and it has been preserved properly with no confusion about this
particular word, and further that the only interpretation that is
consistent with the situation is to take it as an adverb, I will gladly
admit what you kindly euphemize as my 'over-hastiness'. Ditto if
anybody can find another example from the corpus as defined above.
Why do you need another example? Is the "existence" of hapax legomena
any fuzzier than that of words with thousands of attestations?
With respect, I think you misread me (or just didn't understand my
writings, or had a logical mis-match where you applied your criteria
directly to a statement that depended on mine). The legitimacy of the
example provided was under question at the time of writing; that's why
I asked for another example. If one had been offered, we wouldn't need
to worry about the trustworthiness of the example given. As it turns
out, the example given was from a non-native speaker, someone for whom
Latin was an L2. Therefore, I am still waiting (and looking myself) for
an example that will qualify for me and prove that the adverb 'cognite'
was a part of the Latin language for its native speakers. (I still
think it is absurd; what meaning could 'knownly' have had for a native
speaker? 'Knowingly' would be 'sapienter', from an adjective with an
active meaning!)
Post by B. T. Raven
Indeed,
if Latin is to have any future then there is no such thing as tota
Latinitas. As much of it again is in the future as in the past, at least
as far as Latin designations for the phenomena of modern life might need
to be coined.
This concept is inherently flawed. Until you produce a native speaker
of Latin, there is no future for the language itself. If a colony
decides to revive and adopt Latin as their L1, as has happened (for
example) with Hebrew, Latin will have a future as a language. The idea
that some people have (including many people I've got a lot of respect
for, some at this group) that learning Latin and then composing in it
makes them superior to the vulgar herd does not bear upon the basic
facts of linguistics. If you want to claim social, artistic, or
literary legitimacy for L2 Latin you're more than welcome to - I might
even agree on some points - but changes made to the language by L2
speakers are of no interest to me as a linguist.

Neeraj Mathur
B. T. Raven
2005-11-29 07:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
Let us speculate more sublunarily about what might "be" or not "be" a
word. There was a time when every single vocable (no exceptions) of
every language now spoken was not (yet) a word. Each word was spoken (or
written) for the first time by someone and, dis volentibus, imitated by
enough other people that it gradually became current. [snip example]
If this is meant to be a musing on the origin of spoken language, I
have nothing to say about it - most linguists accept that their data
can only take them back to periods when languages were already very
well developed. If it is meant to be something different, then it takes
a far too simplistic approach in the way that it completely ignores
historical linguistics! At any rate, it says suitably little that
there's nothing in it for me to challenge. (There are actual
linguistic
Post by Neeraj Mathur
issues that are similar and may be of interest to you, if you're
interested in this sort of thing: at sci.lang right now there's a
discussion going about the process of how foreign words become a part
of a language's vocabulary, though as of yesterday little of interest
had been said, other than restatements of the data.)
Anyway, all I'd ask you to do is to consider the implications of what
you've said.You stated that people 'imitate' a neologism (your example
was the 'Principatical' of my essay, though you preferred
'principative') until it 'gradually becomes current'. This requires
native speakers among whom it can become current, and further, it does
a disservice to an appreciation of those neologisms in the first place.
As an example, take 'jabberwocky'. Native speakers of English are
likely to interpret this as 'nonsense, something meaningless' or
something of the sort; it is fair enough to consider this a 'word' of
English by now. On the other hand, in order to appreciate Lewis Carroll
properly, we need to keep in mind that the word originates with him,
and the effect of the passage in question depends on the word having no
meaning. The same is true even of well-formed neologisms, like Sholes'
'type-writer' (all of the morphemes are older than his 1868
invention).
I have a sneaking suspicion that Carroll wasn't capable of writing
nonsense. He was a dyed in the wool mathematician and remember that the
immediately preceding context for the exegesis of Jabberwocky is this
famous interchange (Chapter 6, Looking glass):

"
Humpty Dumpty took the book, and looked at it carefully. `That seems to
be done right -- ' he began.

`You're holding it upside down!' Alice interrupted.

`To be sure I was!' Humpty Dumpty said gaily, as she turned it round for
him. `I thought it looked a little queer. As I was saying, that SEEMS to
be done right -- though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just
now -- and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days
when you might get un-birthday presents -- '

`Certainly,' said Alice.

`And only ONE for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell
you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it
means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many
different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's
all.'

"
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
What it boils down to is grammaticality judgements: no native speaker
of English (at least of the British or North American standards) will
judge 'Principatical' to be acceptable as a word of their language,
well before they've looked at the OED, and whether or not they
understand its intended meaning.
If that's true then it's probably because most English words ending
in -atical are from Greek rather than Latin. So grammatical
judgements
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
are no help.
This is decidedly not correct. Native English speakers have *no idea*
whatsoever about the etymologies of their words (unless they've studied
them); at most, there is a [+foreign] marker in some varieties of
English (I think there is in American English, but I'm less convinced
about British English). Certainly, nobody has the ability of telling
the difference between a Latin and a Greek root as the result purely of
their L1 learning of English. (Ask yourself how this would be
possible,
Post by Neeraj Mathur
when almost all Greek in English has arrived through a Latin filter at
some stage; the -ical ending even requires such a Latin filter, as it
combines a Greek -ikos with a Latin -alem.)
What's not correct? The first half-dozen words I could think of were all
from Greek. Then I thought of 'fanatical' and 'morganatical' and then
got bored. The final -al is often dropped.
If the native English speakers you are imagining have *no idea* about
etymologies, then a fortiori, they have no idea whether 'principatical'
is acceptable or not.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
But it wouldn't matter: do you think that native speakers of English
would be more accepting of 'Principative'? I doubt it; I'll try and
work it into something I write for my tutor and see how she reacts.
The question should be whether the adjective should follow the analogy
of other "fourth declension" adjectives (conative, adventive, etc.) If
this is wrong-headed then it at least provides a more solid
"horse-block" than the putative intuition of an average native speaker.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
The term Latin (tout court) should probably be reserved for what might
be called Latinitas aeterna, that is what it was and has been from the
time of Ennius to to that of the latest Vatican documents (possibly with
some of its more bizarre growths liberally pruned). This means that
every flavor of Latin should be qualified in some way (pre-Plautine, Cl.
Latin, High Medieval, Neo-, what not).
If you want to study all of the above literature, you shall not find me
stopping or questioning you. I am a linguist; the object of my study is
(and the statement I made that began this concerns) the Latin
language;
Post by Neeraj Mathur
I can only obtain reliable data about this language through documents
left by native speakers. After the native speakers were gone (or more
accurately, once their language had changed to the extent that they
needed to learn the language of their written documents as an L2), the
thing called 'Latin' is something of a mathematical abstraction based
on schoolmasters' grammar texts.
You should distinguish between talk and speech. The first is learned
from the mother (together with walking, playing, laughing, singing,
etc.) This is Muttersprache as opposed to sermo patrius, i.e. what one
begins to learn at about 7 years old and what treats of the more serious
side of life. The first and most important lesson taught in this formal,
masculine speech (as opposed to prattle) is the ineluctable fact of
death. This having been learned, all the rest is sure to follow:
religion, law, history, even an "apostolic" tradition of literary
monuments studied intensively (sometimes even learned by heart). So it's
not 'Latin' that's the abstraction but your supposed native speakers.
All you have as evidence of it are the products of writers, each of whom
necessarily wrestled the language into a form that resonated with his
own personal experience. This could be based on 'talk' (and it was for a
thousand years) or it can be internalized by formal study. In either
case the object was the formal understanding of a literary intention.
This distinction goes much deeper than that of Saussure's langue and
parole. Langue was imagined to be universal and to be a phenomenon whose
nature and limits could be specified a priori. But the possibilities of
language are not known. It may be that even the sky is not the limit.
For example, before Shakespeare, it was apparently impossible for a
fictional character to hear himself speak. Nowadays there are even some
flesh and blood people who can pull this off. LBJ comes to mind. As the
poet saith:

"Lead, kindly fowl! They always did: ask the ages. What bird
has done yesterday man may do next year, be it fly, be it moult,
be it hatch, be it agreement in the nest."
Post by Neeraj Mathur
A parallel example is in Sanskrit. The vast bulk of what Indologists
consider 'Sanskrit Literature' - including some of the most
interesting
Post by Neeraj Mathur
material, such as the epics and various law texts - were written well
after Sanskrit was a dead language. All of these people learned
Sanskrit as an L2. Therefore, all of the data that comes out of this is
worthless to the linguist. Their language is based on the abstraction
that is the grammar of Panini. It might be interesting literature, it
might be worth study - but it's of no value to questions of Sanskrit
linguistics.
Post by B. T. Raven
If Classical philologists insist
on using "Latin" as if it were synonymous with Classical Latin (or
worse, with Caesarean or Ciceronian Latin) then let them talk among
themselves and to no-one else. What Thomas Watson imprudently said about
a world market for 5 computers is certainly true of the Classical
philologists: 4 or 5 will suffice for a planet but we need about 500,000
Latin teachers (people, that is, who speak, understand, write, and read
the vanilla variety of the Latin language).
Alright. I don't know what spirit you wrote this in, but if this is a
request that I leave this group permanently, my views and interests not
being amenable to the core posters here and my messages devoid of all
value, then this post will be my last here.
Not at all. Your comments are welcome and there is nothing personal in
my animadversions. It's just that I think that on this matter it's not
enough to agree to disagree. The classical philologists should be
considered the mortal enemies of Latin. They are not content to lock it
up in an amber bubble. They want a stake in its fat black heart. They
want it dismembered, every shred of it labeled, dead, absolutely
predictable.
Ever since the middle of the nineteenth century there has been more and
more talk ABOUT Latin and less and less speaking IN Latin.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
If indeed this example is from an author whose native language was
Latin, and it has been preserved properly with no confusion about this
particular word, and further that the only interpretation that is
consistent with the situation is to take it as an adverb, I will gladly
admit what you kindly euphemize as my 'over-hastiness'. Ditto if
anybody can find another example from the corpus as defined above.
Why do you need another example? Is the "existence" of hapax legomena
any fuzzier than that of words with thousands of attestations?
With respect, I think you misread me (or just didn't understand my
writings, or had a logical mis-match where you applied your criteria
directly to a statement that depended on mine). The legitimacy of the
example provided was under question at the time of writing; that's why
I asked for another example. If one had been offered, we wouldn't need
to worry about the trustworthiness of the example given. As it turns
out, the example given was from a non-native speaker, someone for whom
Latin was an L2. Therefore, I am still waiting (and looking myself) for
an example that will qualify for me and prove that the adverb
'cognite'
Post by Neeraj Mathur
was a part of the Latin language for its native speakers. (I still
think it is absurd; what meaning could 'knownly' have had for a native
speaker? 'Knowingly' would be 'sapienter', from an adjective with an
active meaning!)
Possibly I did misread you. That's common enough. Alii de aliis rebus
disserere cupiunt. But anyway, ad rem:
How could one, based on the texts alone and not cheating by consulting
history books, determine which of two writers had learned Latin from his
mother at eleven months and which from the schoolmaster at seven years?
Suppose that the first was born in 475 A.D. and the second in 477 C.E.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
Indeed,
if Latin is to have any future then there is no such thing as tota
Latinitas. As much of it again is in the future as in the past, at least
as far as Latin designations for the phenomena of modern life might need
to be coined.
This concept is inherently flawed. Until you produce a native speaker
of Latin, there is no future for the language itself. If a colony
decides to revive and adopt Latin as their L1, as has happened (for
example) with Hebrew, Latin will have a future as a language. The idea
that some people have (including many people I've got a lot of respect
for, some at this group) that learning Latin and then composing in it
makes them superior to the vulgar herd does not bear upon the basic
facts of linguistics. If you want to claim social, artistic, or
literary legitimacy for L2 Latin you're more than welcome to - I might
even agree on some points - but changes made to the language by L2
speakers are of no interest to me as a linguist.
Again we're talking (speaking?) at cross purposes. I don't want any L1
speakers of Latin. That would require an entire intentional society
dedicated to child abuse (isn't that what Nova Roma is about?) I want it
to be taught thoroughly (to about 20% of the population in all
countries, after childhood and before the end of adolescence) as a
universal antidote to the coming planetary Worldslang.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Neeraj Mathur
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-29 13:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
I have a sneaking suspicion that Carroll wasn't capable of writing
nonsense. He was a dyed in the wool mathematician and remember that the
immediately preceding context for the exegesis of Jabberwocky is this
Thanks for the Alice refresher - it's been a while! (You guys should
come visit me in college before the end of the year, when I'm gone for
good - there's so much in Christ Church that's directly Alice-related,
and of course we used to be the 'Alice-college' before we became the
'Harry Potter-college'!)
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
This is decidedly not correct. Native English speakers have *no idea*
whatsoever about the etymologies of their words (unless they've studied
them); at most, there is a [+foreign] marker in some varieties of
English (I think there is in American English, but I'm less convinced
about British English). Certainly, nobody has the ability of telling
the difference between a Latin and a Greek root as the result purely of
their L1 learning of English. (Ask yourself how this would be possible,
when almost all Greek in English has arrived through a Latin filter at
some stage; the -ical ending even requires such a Latin filter, as it
combines a Greek -ikos with a Latin -alem.)
What's not correct? The first half-dozen words I could think of were all
from Greek. Then I thought of 'fanatical' and 'morganatical' and then
got bored. The final -al is often dropped.
If the native English speakers you are imagining have *no idea* about
etymologies, then a fortiori, they have no idea whether 'principatical'
is acceptable or not.
What's not correct, from the first post, was the idea that English
speakers would find 'Principatical' unacceptable solely because its
root is Latin, not Greek. What's not correct in this most recent post
is the idea that the speakers of a language either know the etymologies
of every word in their language, or they have no idea what the words in
their language are (which seems to be the opposition you've set up).

Native speakers of a language have a large amount of subconscious
knowledge about their language. They know which words exist in it -
they have a 'mental lexicon' - and this lexicon tells them lots of
things about the word, such as its phonological peculiarities, what
sorts of morphological patterns it is a part of, and what kinds of
grammatical arguments it can participate in. There is a certain range
of information that is stored about each word. For instance, some types
of English (particularly American dialects) seem to store a [+foreign]
marker for words like 'garage', which inform on their phonology: it
tells them that the word is to be stressed in an abnormal way (since
most words in English do not have a final stress), and that it has a
strange consonant sound (the French 'zh' sound, which only exists in
[+foreign] words in English). This same marker, as I've shown here
before, gets stored for things like my name: although it's certainly
not French, most people in Canada and the US that I've met make the
word rhyme with their 'garage'. Another [+foreign] word is 'parmesan',
where the <s> is pronounced like the second <g> of 'garage'. Girls in
one of my classes in high school thought 'Giorgio' was pronounced as
though it were the French 'Georges' with an 'o' at the end, which
prompted a teacher to complain, 'No, you're Frenching him' - which set
off a round of smirks and giggles. This shows that speakers have no
access to detailed etymological information: they simply cannot know if
'mathematical' or 'fanatical' have roots in Latin or Greek. They do
know what words are and are not part of their language: thus
'knowingly' has an entry in the mental lexicon, but 'knownly', despite
being well-formed, does not.
Post by B. T. Raven
You should distinguish between talk and speech. The first is learned
from the mother (together with walking, playing, laughing, singing,
etc.) This is Muttersprache as opposed to sermo patrius, i.e. what one
begins to learn at about 7 years old and what treats of the more serious
side of life. The first and most important lesson taught in this formal,
masculine speech (as opposed to prattle) is the ineluctable fact of
religion, law, history, even an "apostolic" tradition of literary
monuments studied intensively (sometimes even learned by heart). So it's
not 'Latin' that's the abstraction but your supposed native speakers.
All you have as evidence of it are the products of writers, each of whom
necessarily wrestled the language into a form that resonated with his
own personal experience. This could be based on 'talk' (and it was for a
thousand years) or it can be internalized by formal study. In either
case the object was the formal understanding of a literary intention.
This is a simple topic of language acquisition. First, a small-ish
point: children do not learn the langauge of their mother or other
adult parental figures unless there is a need for that language, they
learn the language of their of their peer group (if this is close
enough to the parents' language it becomes all that is learned until
much later, conscious development occurs; if it's quite different and
the child cannot communicate with their parent, they will learn the
parents' language as well: this is how bilingualism occurs). Now
obviously this is not the formal written language. On the other hand,
the way that the formal written language is learned is again using L1
methods: exposure, practise and repetition, the child's need for it.
That's why kids who read a lot before puberty are better at producing
formal written language when they're 20 than those who read very
little.

This means that when they turn to the formal, written language, they
have the instincts and intuitions of a subconscious L1 knowledge of
their language. Consider what this means, if you will. When you learn a
foreign language after puberty, your brain patterns are set in the ways
of your native language(s); for Anglophones, this means that English
phonology and even grammar forms affect the way that the foreign
language is spoken. It is virtually impossible to completely lose a
foreign accent if the language had never been approached before puberty
(although some do indeed claim to be able to do so). This effect is not
limited to phonology, but affects grammar as well; practise only goes
so far to remove interference from the other language.

Now for an example. When the authors of the older bits of the Old
Testament wrote their Hebrew, they relied on the instincts of a native
Hebrew speaker. When Hebrew was revived in modern days, the people who
did the revival - the ones who adopted it as their full-time language
so that their children would become L1 speakers of it - were L2 Hebrew
speakers. This means that they had the instincts of their native
languages, which for the most part were Russian, Spanish, and Yiddish.
The result is that modern Hebrew uses lots of constructions that are
very uncommon in the Bible, but found all over the place in
Indo-European languages. Some have even gone so far as to suggest that
Modern Hebrew is an Indo-European language with a Semitic vocabulary, a
slightly more extreme specimen of the type of English (which is a
Germanic language with about a 50% Italic vocabulary).

Now watch this in play with Latin. When people post to this group
asking for Latin translations of their mottos and stuff, those who
respond from here almost always use the copula 'est' in what they send
back. Sometimes, somebody will leave it out, and somebody else will
respond to say something like 'it doesn't feel right to leave out 'est'
here' - you know what I mean. But this is the problem: while they might
believe that their 'feeling' is based on some inherent, superior
Latinity, how can they (or anybody else) possibly know that this isn't
just based on interference from their native language, English, in
which the copula is necessary? A statistical analysis of a defined
corpus of appropriate texts will provide some clues to what native
speaker instinct told Latin L1 speakers about the presence or absence
of the copula, but relying on the L2 speaker's instincts virtually
guarantees interference. (A lot of those mottos have seemed similar
enough to phrases I've seen in Latin that don't use the copula to make
me question it's use, but I haven't systematically studied the material
either.) All of the resonances and nuances that a given word has to its
native speakers - these are largely lost for us in Latin and Greek.
Reading as many texts as carefully as some at this group have done
might restore some of these nuances, but it's impossible even to guess
at what percentage, and with what accuracy, and how free these
instincts are from interference with their native language.
Post by B. T. Raven
How could one, based on the texts alone and not cheating by consulting
history books, determine which of two writers had learned Latin from his
mother at eleven months and which from the schoolmaster at seven years?
Suppose that the first was born in 475 A.D. and the second in 477 C.E.
That's just the problem - we can't. And the language that they would
have learned (being from the same place, I assume you meant) would have
been largely identical to each other, and removed from the Latin that
Ovid and Cicero were native speakers of. Now if we were trying to
rediscover the Latin language based on the texts alone, we would be
sorely disadvantaged if all we had were these L2-speaker texts: we
would never know which bits of what we are reading is Latin, and what
is interference from their native dialect. (Again, Sanskrit provides a
similar situation: very often, when reading the Sanskrit epics or
Buddhist law texts, I come across constructions that are familiar from
Hindi, but completely absent from Vedic Sanskrit texts. I must conclude
that the authors of these texts were L1 speakers of a language closer
to Hindi, they learned Sanskrit from grammar texts, and applied those
rules with the instincts of a Hindi speaker.)

Or let's consider this. If I, as a Hindi speaker, were to write a poem
in Latin in which I use no finite past tense verb forms at all, just
past participles, and arrange the rest of the syntax around those so
that every single sentence would be judged 'correct' by a given Latin
grammar (say Allen and Greenough, for argument's sake), is it fair to
consider - based on my poem's evidence - that Latin is a semi-ergative
language?

(Sanskrit has a huge amount of past-tense verbal inflections, but the
modern Indian languages are ergative in the past tense; therefore, much
Sanskrit - in particular the dramas and legal texts - use past passive
participles as virtually the only past forms. Every sentence that they
produce is 'correct' by the standards of Panini's grammar, but L1
Sanskrit speakers would hardly have recognized the language!)

Am I making sense yet? Are we still in ideological conflict?

Neeraj Mathur
B. T. Raven
2005-11-30 03:37:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
I have a sneaking suspicion that Carroll wasn't capable of writing
nonsense. He was a dyed in the wool mathematician and remember that the
immediately preceding context for the exegesis of Jabberwocky is this
Thanks for the Alice refresher - it's been a while! (You guys should
come visit me in college before the end of the year, when I'm gone for
good - there's so much in Christ Church that's directly Alice-related,
and of course we used to be the 'Alice-college' before we became the
'Harry Potter-college'!)
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
This is decidedly not correct. Native English speakers have *no idea*
whatsoever about the etymologies of their words (unless they've studied
them); at most, there is a [+foreign] marker in some varieties of
English (I think there is in American English, but I'm less
convinced
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
about British English). Certainly, nobody has the ability of telling
the difference between a Latin and a Greek root as the result purely of
their L1 learning of English. (Ask yourself how this would be possible,
when almost all Greek in English has arrived through a Latin filter at
some stage; the -ical ending even requires such a Latin filter, as it
combines a Greek -ikos with a Latin -alem.)
What's not correct? The first half-dozen words I could think of were all
from Greek. Then I thought of 'fanatical' and 'morganatical' and then
got bored. The final -al is often dropped.
If the native English speakers you are imagining have *no idea* about
etymologies, then a fortiori, they have no idea whether
'principatical'
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
is acceptable or not.
What's not correct, from the first post, was the idea that English
speakers would find 'Principatical' unacceptable solely because its
root is Latin, not Greek. What's not correct in this most recent post
is the idea that the speakers of a language either know the
etymologies
Post by Neeraj Mathur
of every word in their language, or they have no idea what the words in
their language are (which seems to be the opposition you've set up).
I didn't say that. I didn't even say that I necessarily find it
unacceptable. I only suggested "principative" as an improvement. Now I
suggest "principatal" as a further improvement. Anyway, the fact that a
given native speaker might say that a given usage "sounds weird" doesn't
settle anything. Any utterance at all begins to sound weird after being
repeated a few times.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Native speakers of a language have a large amount of subconscious
knowledge about their language. They know which words exist in it -
they have a 'mental lexicon' - and this lexicon tells them lots of
things about the word, such as its phonological peculiarities, what
sorts of morphological patterns it is a part of, and what kinds of
grammatical arguments it can participate in. There is a certain range
of information that is stored about each word. For instance, some types
of English (particularly American dialects) seem to store a [+foreign]
marker for words like 'garage', which inform on their phonology: it
tells them that the word is to be stressed in an abnormal way (since
most words in English do not have a final stress), and that it has a
strange consonant sound (the French 'zh' sound, which only exists in
[+foreign] words in English). This same marker, as I've shown here
before, gets stored for things like my name: although it's certainly
not French, most people in Canada and the US that I've met make the
word rhyme with their 'garage'. Another [+foreign] word is 'parmesan',
where the <s> is pronounced like the second <g> of 'garage'. Girls in
one of my classes in high school thought 'Giorgio' was pronounced as
though it were the French 'Georges' with an 'o' at the end, which
prompted a teacher to complain, 'No, you're Frenching him' - which set
off a round of smirks and giggles. This shows that speakers have no
access to detailed etymological information: they simply cannot know if
'mathematical' or 'fanatical' have roots in Latin or Greek. They do
know what words are and are not part of their language: thus
'knowingly' has an entry in the mental lexicon, but 'knownly', despite
being well-formed, does not.
There are variants of all of these, even gay' rodge and parmezin.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
You should distinguish between talk and speech. The first is learned
from the mother (together with walking, playing, laughing, singing,
etc.) This is Muttersprache as opposed to sermo patrius, i.e. what one
begins to learn at about 7 years old and what treats of the more serious
side of life. The first and most important lesson taught in this formal,
masculine speech (as opposed to prattle) is the ineluctable fact of
religion, law, history, even an "apostolic" tradition of literary
monuments studied intensively (sometimes even learned by heart). So it's
not 'Latin' that's the abstraction but your supposed native
speakers.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
All you have as evidence of it are the products of writers, each of whom
necessarily wrestled the language into a form that resonated with his
own personal experience. This could be based on 'talk' (and it was for a
thousand years) or it can be internalized by formal study. In either
case the object was the formal understanding of a literary
intention.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
This is a simple topic of language acquisition. First, a small-ish
point: children do not learn the langauge of their mother or other
adult parental figures unless there is a need for that language, they
learn the language of their of their peer group (if this is close
enough to the parents' language it becomes all that is learned until
much later, conscious development occurs; if it's quite different and
the child cannot communicate with their parent, they will learn the
parents' language as well: this is how bilingualism occurs).
Nihil absurdius! I admit that children practice their language with
other children (of their own age, and with those both slightly older and
slightly younger) but the older generation passes language to the
younger and the whole process is indelibly stamped with time's arrow. If
peer A teaches peer B then necessarily he is not really a peer any more
than teachers and students are peers. Also you won't be surprised to
learn that this nonsense has consequences. The latest of which is so
called "cooperative learning" where the mute 'teacher' stands aside
beaming in wonderment at the innate erudition displayed by her charges.
Meanwhile, the students, vaguely aware that they are being trained for
slavery, begin to engage in a struggle of one-upsmanship for the
increasingly scarce resource of self-esteem. No one is surprised when
this finally leads to overt violence, except the teacher of course.
In all of this I am ignoring the increasingly common but pathological
case of a family whose parents don't speak the language of the society
in which they are living. I don't want to drag in all these peripheral
issues. It smacks of attention deficit disorder.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Now
obviously this is not the formal written language. On the other hand,
the way that the formal written language is learned is again using L1
methods: exposure, practise and repetition, the child's need for it.
That's why kids who read a lot before puberty are better at producing
formal written language when they're 20 than those who read very
little.
This means that when they turn to the formal, written language, they
have the instincts and intuitions of a subconscious L1 knowledge of
their language. Consider what this means, if you will. When you learn a
foreign language after puberty, your brain patterns are set in the ways
of your native language(s); for Anglophones, this means that English
phonology and even grammar forms affect the way that the foreign
language is spoken. It is virtually impossible to completely lose a
foreign accent if the language had never been approached before puberty
(although some do indeed claim to be able to do so). This effect is not
limited to phonology, but affects grammar as well; practise only goes
so far to remove interference from the other language.
Now for an example. When the authors of the older bits of the Old
Testament wrote their Hebrew, they relied on the instincts of a native
Hebrew speaker. When Hebrew was revived in modern days, the people who
did the revival - the ones who adopted it as their full-time language
so that their children would become L1 speakers of it - were L2 Hebrew
speakers. This means that they had the instincts of their native
languages, which for the most part were Russian, Spanish, and Yiddish.
The result is that modern Hebrew uses lots of constructions that are
very uncommon in the Bible, but found all over the place in
Indo-European languages. Some have even gone so far as to suggest that
Modern Hebrew is an Indo-European language with a Semitic vocabulary, a
slightly more extreme specimen of the type of English (which is a
Germanic language with about a 50% Italic vocabulary).
Now watch this in play with Latin. When people post to this group
asking for Latin translations of their mottos and stuff, those who
respond from here almost always use the copula 'est' in what they send
back. Sometimes, somebody will leave it out, and somebody else will
respond to say something like 'it doesn't feel right to leave out 'est'
here' - you know what I mean. But this is the problem: while they might
believe that their 'feeling' is based on some inherent, superior
Latinity, how can they (or anybody else) possibly know that this isn't
just based on interference from their native language, English, in
which the copula is necessary? A statistical analysis of a defined
corpus of appropriate texts will provide some clues to what native
speaker instinct told Latin L1 speakers about the presence or absence
of the copula, but relying on the L2 speaker's instincts virtually
guarantees interference. (A lot of those mottos have seemed similar
enough to phrases I've seen in Latin that don't use the copula to make
me question it's use, but I haven't systematically studied the
material
Post by Neeraj Mathur
either.) All of the resonances and nuances that a given word has to its
native speakers - these are largely lost for us in Latin and Greek.
Reading as many texts as carefully as some at this group have done
might restore some of these nuances, but it's impossible even to guess
at what percentage, and with what accuracy, and how free these
instincts are from interference with their native language.
Possibly very interesting, to someone. I will continue to post (pseudo?)
Latin versions of 21st century Am. English jokes to this ng as long as I
am able to keep finding new ones.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
How could one, based on the texts alone and not cheating by
consulting
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
history books, determine which of two writers had learned Latin from his
mother at eleven months and which from the schoolmaster at seven years?
Suppose that the first was born in 475 A.D. and the second in 477 C.E.
That's just the problem - we can't. And the language that they would
have learned (being from the same place, I assume you meant) would have
been largely identical to each other, and removed from the Latin that
Ovid and Cicero were native speakers of. Now if we were trying to
rediscover the Latin language based on the texts alone, we would be
sorely disadvantaged if all we had were these L2-speaker texts: we
would never know which bits of what we are reading is Latin, and what
is interference from their native dialect. (Again, Sanskrit provides a
similar situation: very often, when reading the Sanskrit epics or
Buddhist law texts, I come across constructions that are familiar from
Hindi, but completely absent from Vedic Sanskrit texts. I must
conclude
Post by Neeraj Mathur
that the authors of these texts were L1 speakers of a language closer
to Hindi, they learned Sanskrit from grammar texts, and applied those
rules with the instincts of a Hindi speaker.)
You are also sorely disadvantaged by the lack of audio tapes of your L1
Latin, court transcripts, diaries of teenage girls, etc., that is, all
raw reportage of ordinary talk. Even the graffitisti have an incipiant
literary aim ("For a good time call Trixie at 555-...") and they
wouldn't put it exactly the same way if they accosted you viva voce.
This being the case, it's clear to me at least that that conscious
literary productions separated by vary long intervals of time are more
alike in many important respects than coaeval samples of ordinary talk
and the formal distortion of this talk for specialized expressive ends.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Or let's consider this. If I, as a Hindi speaker, were to write a poem
in Latin in which I use no finite past tense verb forms at all, just
past participles, and arrange the rest of the syntax around those so
that every single sentence would be judged 'correct' by a given Latin
grammar (say Allen and Greenough, for argument's sake), is it fair to
consider - based on my poem's evidence - that Latin is a semi-ergative
language?
Who knows? Since the question sounds vaguely rhetorical I would guess
the answer would be no. However I am pretty sure that by poem you meant
merely verse. I sense that in this "poem" passion is at a very low ebb.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Sanskrit has a huge amount of past-tense verbal inflections, but the
modern Indian languages are ergative in the past tense; therefore, much
Sanskrit - in particular the dramas and legal texts - use past passive
participles as virtually the only past forms. Every sentence that they
produce is 'correct' by the standards of Panini's grammar, but L1
Sanskrit speakers would hardly have recognized the language!)
Am I making sense yet? Are we still in ideological conflict?
I don't know. We both seem to be interested in the phenomenon of
language in general and in Latin in particular but we don't have a
common language to talk about it. The tools you have at hand and seem to
be very fond of, are for me of no use at all for the study of Latin as I
understand it (or maybe, want it to be.) Consider this scenario
(fictional, I hope): Napoleon Chagnon has recorded thousands of
interviews bewteen and among different individuals, of various ages,
both sexes, possibly across tribes and other kinship groups, made films,
transcribed every thing into IPA, compiled a lexicon, deduced a grammar,
and he finally knows Yanomamö (as an L2 speaker). Inadvertently he
somehow manages to introduce measles into the community, thereby wiping
out every last L1 speaker. Now what he has before him in the form of
notes and recordings is the corpse of a freshly dead language. Since all
the souls would now be departed no one will bother to translate the book
of Psalms into Yanomamö. The culture was not affiliated with any other
via a literary tradition. It will not pass its folkways (except in
anthropological monographs) to any succeeding culture.
Now, the tools of Grimm, Bopp et al. in developing comparative and
historical linguistics, dialectology, glott- or glossology, psycho- this
and that, etc. might very well be quite adequate for exploring the
relation between Yanomamö and other languages of the Venezuelan Amazon
basin, and in some respects, even among other languages world-wide whose
speakers never developed a system of writing. What, however, would
seduce a researcher into dreaming that the same rules should apply to
languages that have spanned the lifetimes of multiple civilizations? The
matrix out of which not only linguistics but all of the sciences came
was the Latin Church and her secular step-children (the university, the
nation-state, even the superdialects-- those with a navy-- fostered by
these nation-states), and its (the Church's) affiliation to ancient
Greco-Roman, Hebrew and even Egyptiac societies, dead and buried except
by virtue of that affiliation, is the medium wherein the Latin
language, whether living, learned, or only an entry in the catalogue of
the department of linguistics, has been transmitted along the chain of
generations. What you people are trying to do smells to me like some
kind of horrible error of topology (mathematical, not literary). It
seems to me that you can't treat Latin the way you seem to want to for
the same reason that you can't marry your mother.

Eduardus
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-30 12:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
I didn't say that. I didn't even say that I necessarily find it
unacceptable. I only suggested "principative" as an improvement. Now I
suggest "principatal" as a further improvement. Anyway, the fact that a
given native speaker might say that a given usage "sounds weird" doesn't
settle anything. Any utterance at all begins to sound weird after being
repeated a few times.
If I misunderstood you, my apologies. I'm not talking, however, about
things 'sounding weird' - what I'm talking about is the ability of a
native speaker to recognise what is and what is not a word in their
language, regardless of its morphological analysis.
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
This is a simple topic of language acquisition. First, a small-ish
point: children do not learn the langauge of their mother or other
adult parental figures unless there is a need for that language, they
learn the language of their of their peer group (if this is close
enough to the parents' language it becomes all that is learned until
much later, conscious development occurs; if it's quite different and
the child cannot communicate with their parent, they will learn the
parents' language as well: this is how bilingualism occurs).
Nihil absurdius!
With respect, if you've not studied child language acquisition, I
wouldn't think that you would be in a position to judge what is
'absurdius' than what. (It's like that anecdote I reread recently - was
it here? - from Hawking's *Brief History of Time*, about the woman who
challenged a famous scientist after a public lecture on cosmology. She
told him that everything he'd said was bollocks, because the world was
a plate on the back of a turtle. He smiled patronisingly and asked,
'But what is the turtle standing on?' Her reply: 'You're very clever,
young man, very clever indeed. But it's turtles all the way down!') My
presentation was rather compressed, perhaps misleadingly for those new
to the subject, but it was nevertheless accurate and in keeping with
research-based (and experience-based) findings. You might want to look
up 'child langauge acquisition' and 'bilingualism' in a textbook or the
internet for a fuller view, with which I am sure you will find
agreement once the inadequacies of my bracketed exposition are made up
for.
Post by B. T. Raven
Possibly very interesting, to someone. I will continue to post (pseudo?)
Latin versions of 21st century Am. English jokes to this ng as long as I
am able to keep finding new ones.
I think this is the point - I have the feeling that people feel that I
am trying to delegitimize such activities. That's not what I'm after; I
enjoy your Latin jokes, when I see them; I've also liked some of the
Neo-Latin poetry at thelatinlibrary.com. It's just that when I want to
consider linguistic topics that relate to Latin, I won't consider your
jokes, those poets, or mediaeval writers as reliable sources of data.
Surely that's fair enough.
Post by B. T. Raven
You are also sorely disadvantaged by the lack of audio tapes of your L1
Latin, court transcripts, diaries of teenage girls, etc., that is, all
raw reportage of ordinary talk. Even the graffitisti have an incipiant
literary aim ("For a good time call Trixie at 555-...") and they
wouldn't put it exactly the same way if they accosted you viva voce.
This being the case, it's clear to me at least that that conscious
literary productions separated by vary long intervals of time are more
alike in many important respects than coaeval samples of ordinary talk
and the formal distortion of this talk for specialized expressive ends.
You're absolutely right about the list of disadvantages. What's
problematic here are two things: first, the distinction between
literary and vulgar Latin during the Golden Age is easy to
over-exaggerate: Cicero's speeches, for instance, would hardly have
been effective persuasive texts if their language was wholly artificial
and divorced from the language of everyday speech; it's only later that
the situation begins to seem like diglossia or something more sinister.
The second point follows from this: while Cicero et al were merely
writing in one of the registers of their speech, later writers were
attempting to write in the ltierary language of Cicero et al - am I
making that distinction clear? The later writers are produicng texts in
what is an imitation of Cicero's Latin, while to Cicero himself, that
was just the formal way of writing - not a conscious choice of a
language, an instinctive way of expressing himself. (Like tutors, when
they lecture, naturally use a register that's different from their
everyday chat; but this is a part of their language, it is informed by
their native instincts, and it is not the deliberate attempt to
reproduce Cicero's Latin - as it used to be a few centuries ago.)
Post by B. T. Raven
Who knows? Since the question sounds vaguely rhetorical I would guess
the answer would be no. However I am pretty sure that by poem you meant
merely verse. I sense that in this "poem" passion is at a very low ebb.
No, that's not a fair judgement. Ergative languages can express
passionate poetry. I'm sure you've heard of Urdu ghazals and stuff.
Even the Sanskrit that's vaguely ergative in the manner I'm speaking is
passionate - after all, the reason it's like that is because the poet
is using his instincts rather than a formalized rule book.
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Am I making sense yet? Are we still in ideological conflict?
I don't know. We both seem to be interested in the phenomenon of
language in general and in Latin in particular but we don't have a
common language to talk about it. The tools you have at hand and seem to
be very fond of, are for me of no use at all for the study of Latin as I
understand it (or maybe, want it to be.)
I'm not sure that this is quite the case. This thread is one devoted to
a linguistic topic - the correct parsing of a word - and so I pull out
linguistic tools to proceed. I put those aside when I'm engaging in
other pursuits; I share your desire for more people to learn Latin (but
I also have a strong desire to force students of Homeric epic to learn
something about non-Greek epics, particularly those of cognate
traditions like India, before they arm themselves with their outrageous
superlatives), and I have written songs and poems in Latin. I enjoy
Mediaeval poetry - some of my favourite Latin phrases are from the bits
of the Carmina Burana that Orff set - and I think it's worth academic
study. But when linguistic topics are raised, I think it's important to
be honest about Latin as a living-in-a-linguistic-sense language. Is
that really so terrible of me?
Post by B. T. Raven
The matrix out of which not only linguistics but all of the sciences came
was the Latin Church and her secular step-children
Impossible to believe that this kind of cultural-supremacy rubbish
would come from someone as well-read as you. Surely you merely 'forgot'
the essential links of linguistics to India and Panini, and of many
other sciences with the Arab world, nor of the great exported
achievements of China (including the one thing that assured the
political ascendance of the West: gunpowder).
Post by B. T. Raven
and its (the Church's) affiliation to ancient
Greco-Roman, Hebrew and even Egyptiac societies, dead and buried except
by virtue of that affiliation, is the medium wherein the Latin
language, whether living, learned, or only an entry in the catalogue of
the department of linguistics, has been transmitted along the chain of
generations.
Now we're about to enter into a far more serious ideological conflict,
one which is beyond the decorum of this group to explore further. The
greatest failing of students of Roman civilization is refusing to see
Rome within the scope of the Hellenistic world, and of students of
Greek civilization is refusing to see Greece within the context of the
Near East. We are far to much a product of first Herodotus and then
Octavian in the lines we draw between 'us' and 'them'. Approaching the
ancient world through the eyes of the church and seeing in it only what
leads to the Modern West is ridiculously narrow, as contemptible a type
of nationalism as my grandmother's (though I love her dearly) approach
to ancient India. I'll have nothing more to say about this stuff; you
may have the last word.

Neeraj Mathur
Robert Stonehouse
2005-11-29 21:46:23 UTC
Permalink
On 28 Nov 2005 15:20:23 -0800, "Neeraj Mathur"
...
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
The term Latin (tout court) should probably be reserved for what might
be called Latinitas aeterna, that is what it was and has been from the
time of Ennius to to that of the latest Vatican documents (possibly with
some of its more bizarre growths liberally pruned). This means that
every flavor of Latin should be qualified in some way (pre-Plautine, Cl.
Latin, High Medieval, Neo-, what not).
If you want to study all of the above literature, you shall not find me
stopping or questioning you. I am a linguist; the object of my study is
(and the statement I made that began this concerns) the Latin language;
I can only obtain reliable data about this language through documents
left by native speakers. After the native speakers were gone (or more
accurately, once their language had changed to the extent that they
needed to learn the language of their written documents as an L2), the
thing called 'Latin' is something of a mathematical abstraction based
on schoolmasters' grammar texts.
A parallel example is in Sanskrit. The vast bulk of what Indologists
consider 'Sanskrit Literature' - including some of the most interesting
material, such as the epics and various law texts - were written well
after Sanskrit was a dead language. All of these people learned
Sanskrit as an L2. Therefore, all of the data that comes out of this is
worthless to the linguist. Their language is based on the abstraction
that is the grammar of Panini. It might be interesting literature, it
might be worth study - but it's of no value to questions of Sanskrit
linguistics.
Maybe we ought to consider that Latin as we know it is
itself a creation of art. Cicero, Virgil and the rest wrote
in a language that had been developed by centuries of
deliberate, strenuous effort to turn the old language,
whatever that was like (the XII Tables?) into something
capable of expressing what could be said in Greek.

That does not make it quite a second language for those who
wrote (and spoke) it; perhaps more like Standard English
which says 'school yard' where a north Yorkshire schoolboy
might say something more like "skule gee'uth".

Plautus, and Cicero's Letters, show us how such a language
could be colloquial, vivid, abrupt and many other things we
expect a native speaker to be. Pliny's Letters are a bit
smooth, but still not struggling to find words or
expressions.

The Middle Ages, on the other hand, are struggling. They no
longer think in the ways, or about the things, that the
Romans did. The vocabulary and syntax are no longer natural
to them. That has several effects.

For example, they use real Latin words in strange ways (like
this 'cognite', if I have understood it). They introduce
words from their own languages, disguised with Latin endings
- we had 'jomannus' for 'yeoman' a little while ago. They
invent simplified new versions of the language; for example,
a version of Latin devised for Aristotle to be translated
into.

(I nourish the suspicion that this had a big effect on the
understanding of Aristotle and people's attitudes to him. He
wrote in a language with a background and common usage. When
translated into an artificial one that had neither, his
works must have lost much of their connection with life and
reality.)

It is defensible to say such a language is not Latin but
(say) pidgin Latin, like 'mipela', or 'number one pickanin
him blong Missus Quin' (which is the Prince of Wales, if I
have it right). None the worse for that, but not the same
language.
...
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Alright. I don't know what spirit you wrote this in, but if this is a
request that I leave this group permanently, my views and interests not
being amenable to the core posters here and my messages devoid of all
value, then this post will be my last here.
...
Please do not carry out this dreadful threat! We must not be
too sensitive. It is the occasional presence of someone on
the newsgroup who actually understands the subject that in
the end makes Usenet worth reading. And I have seen much
worse personal abuse than what you get, believe me.
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
bob
2005-11-28 17:13:11 UTC
Permalink
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: 27 Nov 2005 16:45:57 -0800
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
Could you, then, please provide some
more context for this citation? I am particularly interested in its
provenance: when and where did this text appear, and what are our
sources for its attestation.
6th century. Contained in Souter's lexicon. The text is contained in Migne
67.

Well, if one looks at the authors included in the OLD, Lewis and Short,
Liddle & Scott, TLG and TLL, your criteria don't seem to hold, especially as
regards so called "native" speakers.
On the other hand, if no such examples exist - given the size and range
of the Latin corpus - there would be a strong case to be made for my
It amuses me rather than bothers me. The history of textual criticism is
such that all your criterion yields is what readers have yielded up. As an
example, before Cicero's letters were discovered, there were words contained
in them that were not found elsewhere - except in some cases a citation in
another author. Texts from a wide range of periods are still being
discovered.
it is perfectly consistent to say that the existence of morphology and
roots to apply those rules to does not imply that all possible forms
for all roots exist.
Indo-European was largely similar: not all verbs
showed every category, and there was a large amount of paradigm-filling
in the daughter languages,
Still, it is also perfectly consistent to note - with some humility - that
vocabulary lists, which are essentially what lexica are, vary in
completeness and in range with the criteria of scholarship and selection,
the definition of inclusiveness which their compilers and readers bring to
them. Two widely distributed examples will suffice: Glare and Lewis and
Short. More specialized lexica such as Souter's or Ducange's or Ochoa's will
extend the range through a modification of selection criteria. Your criteria
would lead one to conclude that most of Glare was Latin. more of Lewis and
Short wasn't, and that Ducange, Ochoa, etc. were something else altogether.
I see no convincing reason for so concluding or, for that matter, so
limiting the inquiry.
The term Latin (tout court) should probably be reserved for what might
be called Latinitas aeterna, that is what it was and has been from the
time of Ennius to to that of the latest Vatican documents (possibly with
some of its more bizarre growths liberally pruned). This means that
every flavor of Latin should be qualified in some way (pre-Plautine, Cl.
Latin, High Medieval, Neo-, what not). If Classical philologists insist
on using "Latin" as if it were synonymous with Classical Latin (or
worse, with Caesarean or Ciceronian Latin) then let them talk among
themselves and to no-one else. What Thomas Watson imprudently said about
a world market for 5 computers is certainly true of the Classical
philologists: 4 or 5 will suffice for a planet but we need about 500,000
Latin teachers (people, that is, who speak, understand, write, and read
the vanilla variety of the Latin language).
I concur, and, I think, I am not alone. Range of inclusiveness is one of the
reasons Father Foster is so fond of Lewis and Short.
Why do you need another example? Is the "existence" of hapax legomena
any fuzzier than that of words with thousands of attestations?
Actually, although Souter doesn't give another citation, he doesn't identify
it as a sole occurrence.

In correspondence attributed to Abelard and Heloise we find the following
(Abelard's):

ardorem mentis his cogor pandere verbis,
qui mentem mordet cordis secretaque torret
ut laticesque petit quos ardor solis inurit
tangere sic pectus iam gestio temet anhelus
iam facio finem concludens ista sigillo.

Latices is what is of interest here. The lexica will tell us that it means
fluid or some such thing. In Commodian, however, we find that it also means
a hiding place. Isidore of Seville (Et. 13.20.4) relates latex to water
which hides (lateat) in the veins of the earth (e.g., swales, underground
streams, etc., an observation which, I think, provides insight into
Abelard's imagery which is not contained in the lexical entry. Lewis and
Short cite for latex Ovid, Vergil, Lucretius, etc., but not Commodian or
Isidore, but it would be foolish to conclude from this (without having read
the latter two, that the word was not used by them.

Bob
Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-28 22:16:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Could you, then, please provide some
more context for this citation? I am particularly interested in its
provenance: when and where did this text appear, and what are our
sources for its attestation.
6th century. Contained in Souter's lexicon. The text is contained in Migne
67.
Well, if one looks at the authors included in the OLD, Lewis and Short,
Liddle & Scott, TLG and TLL, your criteria don't seem to hold, especially as
regards so called "native" speakers.
Several points:

1) You earlier in this thread suggested that dictionaries were of no
use to the issues at hand; now you want to use them to throw away my
points. Are you not open to a charge of inconsistency? It's of no
import, though, so I won't make such a charge; let us move on.

2) Dictionaries are irrelevant, as you rightly said in your earlier
post, which is why I've not mentioned them yet: the issue at hand is
one of linguistics, and lexicographers are not linguists. (Those
lexicographers who give citations are useful to linguists, simply
because they give easy access to the data; this does not make them
linguists, though!)

3) I don't understand your contempt for 'so called "native speakers"'.
This is the concept upon which linguistics is based. Native speakers
give you reliable data about a language - indeed, the language is
defined by the data that they provide; non-native speakers give data
whose accuracy can only be determined by measuring it against the data
given by native speakers.

4) Therefore, a sixth century text gives us no information whatsoever
about the Latin language when it was alive. All it tells us is that
people who learned Latin as an L2 applied the morphological rules that
they learned to obtain a well-formed word. If, as I still believe (with
no evidence to the contrary), this word did not in fact exist earlier,
then we can credit the sixth century writer with a neologism, and use
that to further appreciate his work. (Ovid even uses words that seem
like neologisms; there's one suspected in Book One of the Met, if I
remember properly, and if you insist I'll look it up. Hard, to say the
least, to prove that it is, of course; but if it is, that enhances our
appreciation of the man's art.)
Post by bob
Your criteria
would lead one to conclude that most of Glare was Latin. more of Lewis and
Short wasn't, and that Ducange, Ochoa, etc. were something else altogether.
I see no convincing reason for so concluding or, for that matter, so
limiting the inquiry.
The point of limiting the enquiry is to answer linguistic questions
about Latin. If you want to read things that people have produced in
what is essentially a mathematical abstraction based on that language,
your project is not a linguistic one, and there is no reason to accept
the limits of linguistics.

(At this point in your post, you quoted B.T.Raven / Eduardus, but
didn't attribute it to him; I'll reply to him separately, and since you
agreed with him, I'm sure I'll answer your objections to me there as
well.)

Let me summarise our differences. My interest is in Latin the language,
and I use linguistics to explore that interest; I therefore accept the
limitations of that approach and apply them as best as I can. Your
interest is in something different: it is in the broad scope of
literature produced by people who want to use Latin, and are prepared
to extend or change the language in ways that native speakers did not.
To you, the concept of native speaker is rightly irrelevant: literature
is literature, and there's your interest. To me, the concept of native
speaker is paramount, for only they can give you access into real,
breathing L1 languages, as opposed to the abstractions of grammar
books. I have no value judgements towards your interest or the methods
you use. It's simply not relevant to a linguist.

Neeraj Mathur
bob
2005-11-28 23:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: 28 Nov 2005 14:16:27 -0800
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
You earlier in this thread suggested that dictionaries were of no
use to the issues at hand;
Actually I never said anything of the sort. I merely established a context
for lexica. I will quote myself (I think the following contain all my
All that can be said with any certainty is that the reader(s) for that section
of the OED didn't report the form. But that, I fear, is a rather narrow
understanding of 'existence'. Ýhere are thousands of words and expressions,
technical, scientific, regional, argot etc. which are not to be found in the
OED. As an example - which I have not checked - I would be surprised if
'chickenhawk' in the sense of an older man who patronizes young boys and pays
for their sexual favors has made it past the scrutiny of the OED readers. And
it is similar for 'wrinklehawk', a flap or tear in a sleeve caused by snagging
it on a branch or a bramble. And then we have words like that fine old cutting
instrument, the 'fro(e)' which would be unrecognizable to most speakers of
standard English, but which is displayed prominently in Faulkner. I doubt that
the OED's readers have included 'Buckinger's Boot', meaning vagina, or
'chicken' or 'turkey' meaning penis, or expressions like 'ckoke the chicken'
or 'box the Jesuit', meaning to masturbate. And of course there are
curiosities out of time like 'whaleroad' which Robert Lowell has fastforwarded
a thousand years or so into "The Quaker Graveyard in Nantucket, a use of
kenning which, I think, might have struck the ancient carousers of the
meodsehtla superlunarily rather than sublunarily.
(11/27/05)
Well, if one looks at the authors included in the OLD, Lewis and Short, Liddle
& Scott, TLG and TLL, your criteria don't seem to hold, especially as regards
so called "native" speakers.
Still, it is also perfectly consistent to note - with some humility - that
vocabulary lists, which are essentially what lexica are, vary in completeness
and in range with the criteria of scholarship and selection, the definition of
inclusiveness which their compilers and readers bring to them. Two widely
distributed examples will suffice: Glare and Lewis and Short. More specialized
lexica such as Souter's or Ducange's or Ochoa's will extend the range through
a modification of selection criteria. Your criteria would lead one to conclude
that most of Glare was Latin. more of Lewis and Short wasn't, and that
Ducange, Ochoa, etc. were something else altogether. I see no convincing
reason for so concluding or, for that matter, so limiting the inquiry.
I concur, and, I think, I am not alone. Range of inclusiveness is one of the
reasons Father Foster is so fond of Lewis and Short.
Post by B. T. Raven
Why do you need another example? Is the "existence" of hapax legomena
any fuzzier than that of words with thousands of attestations?
Actually, although Souter doesn't give another citation, he doesn't identify
it as a sole occurrence.
In correspondence attributed to Abelard and Heloise we find the following
ardorem mentis his cogor pandere verbis,
qui mentem mordet cordis secretaque torret
ut laticesque petit quos ardor solis inurit
tangere sic pectus iam gestio temet anhelus
iam facio finem concludens ista sigillo.
Latices is what is of interest here. The lexica will tell us that it means
fluid or some such thing. In Commodian, however, we find that it also means a
hiding place. Isidore of Seville (Et. 13.20.4) relates latex to water which
hides (lateat) in the veins of the earth (e.g., swales, underground streams,
etc., an observation which, I think, provides insight into Abelard's imagery
which is not contained in the lexical entry. Lewis and Short cite for latex
Ovid, Vergil, Lucretius, etc., but not Commodian or Isidore, but it would be
foolish to conclude from this (without having read the latter two, that the
word was not used by them.
(11/28/05)
2) Dictionaries are irrelevant, as you rightly said in your earlier
post, which is why I've not mentioned them yet
Please see the preceding.
I don't understand your contempt for 'so called "native speakers"'.
Neither do I, since I never expressed this contempt.
Therefore, a sixth century text gives us no information whatsoever
about the Latin language when it was alive.
Tsk tsk. Even linguists should study history. Anicius Manlius Severinus
Boethius and Venantius Fortunatus, among others: what language were they
speaking? And Jerome, removed from them by a mere hundred years?
Your
interest is in something different: it is in the broad scope of
literature produced by people who want to use Latin, and are prepared
to extend or change the language in ways that native speakers did not.
To you, the concept of native speaker is rightly irrelevant: literature
is literature, and there's your interest.
Sounds like you've been consulting Miss Cleo on this.
To me, the concept of native
speaker is paramount, for only they can give you access into real,
breathing L1 languages, as opposed to the abstractions of grammar
books.
Early reporters of linguistic data among Native Americans in the Southwest
could have stood a dose of reality from Jesuit priests and anthropologists.
They would have been prepared for and understood the phenomenon of
deliberate misreporting, a thing which native informants will also do.
To me, the concept of native
speaker is paramount, for only they can give you access into real,
breathing L1 languages, as opposed to the abstractions of grammar
books.
So you say. What are the "insights" into Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, Pali, Old
Irish, etc.? Are they something other than "insights" about something less
real than language??
I have no value judgements towards your interest or the methods
you use. It's simply not relevant to a linguist.
As I have heard it observed, "That's very white of you."

Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-11-29 00:15:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Post by Neeraj Mathur
I don't understand your contempt for 'so called "native speakers"'.
Neither do I, since I never expressed this contempt.
Your phrasing, which I quoted verbatim (including the quote marks), was
of the sort generally associated with contemptuous dismissal. I read
you to be a man of intelligence, so I don't suspect you to use
contemptuous language unless you have a desire to be contemptuous.
Post by bob
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Therefore, a sixth century text gives us no information whatsoever
about the Latin language when it was alive.
Tsk tsk. Even linguists should study history. Anicius Manlius Severinus
Boethius and Venantius Fortunatus, among others: what language were they
speaking? And Jerome, removed from them by a mere hundred years?
If you're going to patronize me, at least get your facts right. Jerome
was born 347, Fortunatus 530; I don't see how this translates to 'a
mere hundred years'. Yes, their language was significantly different.
Their native languages (Boethius and Fortunatus) were different from
the language which they wrote. The question is not one of 'history',
which you presume I have not studied, it is of historical linguistics:
you are inconsistent in this paragraph.
Post by bob
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Your
interest is in something different: it is in the broad scope of
literature produced by people who want to use Latin, and are prepared
to extend or change the language in ways that native speakers did not.
Sounds like you've been consulting Miss Cleo on this.
Well, will you now object if I think you are being contemptuous of me,
at least? My statement was based on my observations of your recent
postings. If my conclusion was wrong, you could have said so and
corrected me rather than dismissing me as someone insane. I've been
running a fever since last Tuesday, but it hasn't been that high!
Post by bob
Early reporters of linguistic data among Native Americans in the Southwest
could have stood a dose of reality from Jesuit priests and anthropologists.
They would have been prepared for and understood the phenomenon of
deliberate misreporting, a thing which native informants will also do.
Yes, you are correct. Do you remember when earlier in the thread I
mentioned that some linguists prefer to use corpus-based methods even
for living languages? This is one of the main reasons.
Post by bob
Post by Neeraj Mathur
To me, the concept of native
speaker is paramount, for only they can give you access into real,
breathing L1 languages, as opposed to the abstractions of grammar
books.
So you say. What are the "insights" into Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, Pali, Old
Irish, etc.? Are they something other than "insights" about something less
real than language??
You are putting quote marks on 'insights' as though it was a word (or a
synonym of a word) that I used. As I did not, and your question is
rather poorly formed, I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean to ask
me. (Perhaps I should have assumed that this was an attempt at rhetoric
rather than the asking of a question.)
Post by bob
As I have heard it observed, "That's very white of you."
Huh?

Neeraj Mathur
bob
2005-12-04 23:41:06 UTC
Permalink
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: 28 Nov 2005 16:15:52 -0800
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
f you're going to patronize me, at least get your facts right. Jerome
was born 347, Fortunatus 530; I don't see how this translates to 'a
mere hundred years'.
It doesn't (Jerome, 347-420; Boethius, 480-524; Fortunatus 540-600), but the
point is that there is no evidence that they spoke anything other than some
variety of Latin. If by another language you mean a variety of Latin which
differed from what they wrote, so what? We know that the educated written
language differed significantly from the common speech. Aside from regional
evidence from inscriptions, we have the testimonia of individuals like
Cicero (I've quoted the texts elsewhere on this list) who discusses several
trends in common parlance. There were varieties of common speech which
preserved elements of rustic diction, with features of Oscan, Umbrian,
Samnite, Faliscian, etc. There were varieties (e.g., the Ciceronian example
of the speech of patrician Roman matrons), as we know from De Oratore, which
preserved archaic or Plautine features.

Now to return to Jerome, Boethius and Fortunatus. Jerome appears to have
come from a well off Christian family in Dalmatia. He came to Rome at an
early age (no later than twelve) and received what was for the time an
excellent classical education (from the likes of Donatus). If memory serves
me, we have it from him that on his first trip to the East (373 at Antioch,
375 at Chalcis) Latin was his only language. However one chooses to
interpret this, it would not have been unusual for one of his social status
(as in late republican times) to have been speaking from childhood a purer
Latin than the street variety. In fact we do know that his formal education
began in Dalmatia. As for Boethius (who has often been designated - not
without justification - 'the last classical author'), he was the son of a
consul and of consular rank himself. Except for Greek, in which he was
expert, we have, to the best of my knowledge, no attestations of him
speaking another language. While he was trained in rhetoric and the other
arts at Ravenna, it would not have been unusual for a person of his rank and
distinction to have grown up exposed to a more refined standard of latinity,
The same may be said of Fortunatus, a Venetian who was a poet, a courtier, a
diplomat, a scholar, and a cleric. That cultivation of classical standards
of Latinity persisted well past late antiquity is perhaps best attested by
the late example of the Neniae of Pontanus, a collection of Latin lullabies
and nursery songs which he wrote for his children, especially his little
boy, Luciolus.In a like vein we have the somewhat eccentric and similarly
late account of Montaigne who tells us that he spoke Latin before he spoke
French.

Regarding the time frame for our three Veteres Christiani: I guess you got
me. I was more effusive than precise. Nevertheless, Boethius' floruit would
have been within 100-120 years of Jerome's death, and Fortunatus' within
150. At any rate both of the latter flourished within the terminus of what
is often considered the period during which Vulgar Latin was still
interregionally intelligible and commonly undifferentiated from 'Latin' in
public understanding and use (somewhere in the early 7th century, with ca.
600 A.D. often offered as a convenient but not ironclad cutoof date; the
eighth or ninth century by some other authorities, with the Carolingian
decree at the Council of Tours (813) approving, for the sake of
intelligibility, sermons in the so called rustica Romana lingua being cited
as evidence for the later date). While I wouldn't dispute that either of our
authors might have understood the common speech - whatever that might have
been if it had been something other than some form of Latin - I likewise see
no reason or justification to deny them the simultaneous access to and
nurturing in the more educated variety of Latinity, a Latinity, I venture,
which would have been the prerogative of class and which would not have been
foreign to Jerome, whose Latin exhibited such purity that he tells us of a
dream in which he was reproached for being Ciceronianus rather than
Christianus.
The Middle Ages, on the other hand, are struggling. They no
longer think in the ways, or about the things, that the
Romans did. The vocabulary and syntax are no longer natural
to them. That has several effects.
For example, they use real Latin words in strange ways (like
this 'cognite', if I have understood it). They introduce
words from their own languages, disguised with Latin endings
- we had 'jomannus' for 'yeoman' a little while ago. They
invent simplified new versions of the language; for example,
a version of Latin devised for Aristotle to be translated
into.
(I nourish the suspicion that this had a big effect on the
understanding of Aristotle and people's attitudes to him. He
wrote in a language with a background and common usage. When
translated into an artificial one that had neither, his
works must have lost much of their connection with life and
reality.)
It is defensible to say such a language is not Latin but
(say) pidgin Latin, like 'mipela', or 'number one pickanin
him blong Missus Quin' (which is the Prince of Wales, if I
have it right). None the worse for that, but not the same
language.
Regarding the pidginization of mediaeval Latin, it is certainly a phenomenon
to be reckoned with, and we have ample written evidence that grammarians and
monastics in late antiquity and the middle ages were aware of and addressed
the situation. I suppose the most famous examples are the earlier Appendix
Probi and the Later Glosses of Reichenau. Regarding borrowings from other
languages, well, that's something that occurs in the history of languages. A
very famous and celebrated Roman legion had a name thought to be borrowed
from Celtic (the famous Alauda). As far as the 'naturalness' of the
vocabulary and syntax go, I think it varies with what 'them' you're
referring to. If inscriptions are any indication, the phenomenon reaches
pretty far back, even into what we like to think of as the 'best period'.

That having been said, it would be a mistake to hold that the barbarisms and
solecisms of, for instance, a Gregory of Tours, set the standard of
Latinity for late antiquity any more than errors in spelling, quantity,
grammar found in inscriptions do so for the Augustan age. There are too many
examples of very good Latin that contravene this. As examples I might cite
Boethius, Einhard, Lupus, Hildebert of Lavardin, Abelard, etc. In the period
spanned by these authors one will find prose written to classical standards,
as well as verse composed in the classical (quantitative) and the
contemporary (accentual/syllabic) modes.

One observation on the medieval translations of Aristotle: the evidence
seems to be that Christian and Jewish scholars translated them into Arabic,
and that they were then translated out of the Arabic into Latin.

Regarding the degree of mastery of the language and its potential for
expression, this varied with the user, as dubtless it must have even in
classical times, with a range from the bizarre to the elegant (witness
Cicero, Pliny, Fronto or Livy, Tacitus, Velleius Paterculus), and this again
was recognized by a number of mediaeval authors. Abelard himself
distinguishes between the training and competence of the litteratus and the
magister, and criticizes the pretensions of the supposedly literate clergy,
and John of Salisbury writes both elegantly and insightfully on matters of
style, diction, proper use of words, and, of course, course of training,
etc.

From late antiquity through the high middle ages, up to the dawn of the
renaissance, Latin continued as a viable medium of communication - both
written and oral. It acquired new vocabulary, and influenced and was
influenced by the languages and events around it. A striking example of this
is the fabliau "De L'enfant Qui Fu Remis au Soleil" and its analogue from
the Cambridge Songs, Advertite,/omnes populi,/ridiculum/et audite,
quomodo/Suevum mulier/ et ipse illam/ defraudaret - Which was the chicken,
which the egg?

One of the first grammars we have of a vernacular language, the "Donatz
Provenzals", is written in Latin. Much later the viability of and sheer
endurance of Latin is again demonstrated by Jesuit grammars of Sanskrit and
Japanese. Similarly we have the Old Irish Glosses, which leads one to
speculate - not unfoundedly - on the question of bilingualism and the
historical provenance of Latin, which, I think, is not irrelevant, and is
not dealt justice by the claim that
I can only obtain reliable data about this language through documents
left by native speakers. After the native speakers were gone (or more
accurately, once their language had changed to the extent that they
needed to learn the language of their written documents as an L2), the
thing called 'Latin' is something of a mathematical abstraction based
on schoolmasters' grammar texts.
It is scarcely credible that the written literature of the classical bore
much resemblance to the daily speech. The canons of composition and word
formation persisted for a thousand years after Cicero - and in fact still
persist - and it seems hardly meaningful to suggest that the continuous use
of an admittedly artificial language becomes somehow more artificial in a
later period of its artificiality. As for Robert's statement that the
medieval writers had ceased to think as the Romans thought, I don't quite
understand the point. The "Romans" sucked up foreign gods, goods, women,
customs and the like with a voraciousness that - at least for me - raises
doubt concerning what it meant to 'think like a Roman'. Having said that, I
don't find it implausible that some species of "correct' (correct becoming
increasingly a category formed on largely written and school transmitted
canons) latin must have persistedfor so long that acquisition often did not
have to be through the vehicle of formal study. If we are to believe
Hildegarde, she acquired her proficiency in Latin through persistent use of
and exposure to the formal Liturgy. That she thought more like a medieval
christian woman than a Roman of whatever period doesn't seem to have much
bearing on the literary output, especially since each generation of Romans
seems, at least to me, to be in metamporhoses. Rome may be eternal, but she
certainly has not been immutable.

Roma vetusta fui, sed nunc nova Roma vocabor;
eruta ruderibus, culmen ad astra fero. (Hildebert of Lavardin)

This brings me, it seems, to my confession, which, at this point should come
as no surprise: I am not and never have been impressed with the supposed
utility of applying L1, L2 or native language categorizations to a language
like Latin which persisted as a living and viable - though every bit as
artificial as it must have been in so called 'Roman" times - medium of
communication long past the terminal points at which the spoken language had
evolved into more or less modern Romance languages (somw writers,
incidentally, trace the inception of ProtoRomance to ca. 150 B.C., which
gives one reason to hover in humility over the constructs of linguists and
the notion of "Romanness". The medieval monastic system being what it was,
there wee doubtless individuals, especially prior to the full florescence of
vernaculars, who felt more at home in Latin, whether it had been a first or
a second language, and who probably used it with such regularity that the
local dialect or vernacular seemed a 'foreign' or a 'second' language. They
were for all practical purposes fluent, 'native' speakers of Latin.

Beyond this, I also believe - common sense would seem to dictate it - that
primarily or secondarily acquired good spoken and written Latin probably
endured in refined enclaves well into the period of the romanticization of
that elusive construct we like to call 'Vulgar Latin' , so that the
distinctions of when and where it was a primary or secondary language are
for the most part shrouded in an obscurity onto which we hang a cloak of
more or less imprecise - but convenient - temporal and geographical
generalizations.

I guess I should finally touch briefly on the matter of 'contempt'. I have
reread my posts and find no evidence of it. Perhaps a certain levity and
flippancy which I am wont to display toward seemingly vatic effusions of
moral, epistemological, philological or otherwise theoretical certainty - or
other utterances transmitted through an amanuensis of Absolute Spirit -
might be misconstrued as contempt. However, it's not anything more than the
amusement of one at the threshold of dotage, so that, should you continue to
asseret that you are a linguist, and were I to respond - with a preliminary
genuflection, of course that, linguist though you may be, you also strike me
as something of a princox, I would only be - as they say in the schoolyards,
playgrounds and parks here at the edge of desolation - 'Yanking your chain'.
For you to take it otherwise would only, I fear, precipitate an irritation
which I probably would be loath to share:

hoc est cur palles? cur quis non prandeat hoc est?

Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-05 00:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
I guess I should finally touch briefly on the matter of 'contempt'. I have
reread my posts and find no evidence of it.
Please, then, accept my apologies. May all those who have felt somewhat
chagrined, annoyed, impatiently amused or frustrated by my writings in
this thread bear me no further ill-will. I will keep my further
comments in postings here in line with the sensibilities of the group.

Neeraj Mathur
Jack O'Malley
2005-11-29 04:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
(I apologise if things look strange in this posting; I can't get this
group on my university's nntp server, so I'm using Google for the first
time!)
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
So what you are all saying is that the e changes the ADJ to an adv same as
ment in Spanish or French or in English ly or ily.
This is correct (although you mean -mente in Spanish, not -ment). This
-e is, however, always long (except in a few, very old and common words
like 'bene', which show the expected iambic shortening). It is not as
productive as you might think; Latin usually prefers not to use adverbs
of this sort if alternatives are available.
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
COGNITE ADV of cognitus
...
Post by i***@bellsouth.net
but also
COGNITE vocative of cognitus
The difference between these two is that in the first, the adverb, the
final vowel -e is long, whereas in the latter, the vowel is always
short.
I would also point out that the adverb 'cognite', while formed in
accordance with the proper rules, is not to my knowledge a word in
Latin that exists. (In the same way, 'superlunarily' is a well-formed
adverb from the English adjective 'superlunary', but does not exist).
The use of 'superlunary' and 'infralunary' smacks of Ptolemaic
ignorancy; the preferred terms surely must be 'translunar' and
'cislunar' along with their adverbial confrères unless of course one
plans to itinerate exoecliptically. Upness or downness is then
a theological rather than an astrophysical question. Quarks
notwithstanding.
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Any adverb from 'cognitus' would be as absurd in Latin as 'knownly'
would be in English; I invite citations from those who know me to be
wrong.
Absurd? Is 'Latinly' less or more absurd than 'Latinê'? Speakest
thou Latinly or Saxonly? ;-) Do you mean semantically or
morphologically 'absurd'?

Though I haven't found a cite for 'cognitê' (adv), I think the
collation with the English obfucscates rather than eludicidates.
'Cognitê' might be construed as 'in a known or recognized fashion',
'by well-known means', etc., rather than the obviously egregious
Englishly 'knownly'. We can, for example, say in Latin 'amicê'
but not 'friendlily' in English. (As -lîc was originally an
adjectival suffix, not an exclusively adverbial one, my goodly
knave! ;-)) Falsi amici false (i.e. falsa mente) agunt.

But is the 'absurdity' the fact of derivation from the past passive
participle? Then deservedly must needs be mentioned 'consultê'
from consultus, pp of consulto; rectê from rectus, pp of rego;
dictê from ... err, hold on a minute, that's a goddam mountain!
Ignore that one. :-)

Yet of what would or would not have passed the lips of Cicero, Vergil
or the peripatetic mulieres secutuleiae might not one sans peur et
sans reproche and undisdainedly humptydumptively hazard a guess:

M.S. I: Qualis tibi nox fuit, soror?
M.S. II: Eheu! Quot meo in vico erant agricolae Osci
et mehercle mihi iam dolet cunnus.
M.S. I: Bah! Multo mihi peius. Apud me aderat grex Graeculorum
et cognite vehementer diu dolebit podex.
M.S. II. Tui me miseretur. Tibine tamen profuit?
M.S. I. Ob miserationem gratulor. Valde profuit!

I suppose the high-schoolers will be thumbing the lexica to
get the gist of that.

But, ut reveniamus ad mutones nostros, as I write these words,
I note that the thread is incohatively devolving into
acrimony and I do not wish to denigrate what you have said as
I agree with many of your observations from a linguistic point
of view. But I do feel it appropriate to caution against the
use of analogy in evaluating potential locutions amongst
one or more languages.

I am also skeptical of the value of relying on so-called 'native
speakers' as sources of linguistic rectitude -- Esperantists
claims to have 'native speakers'! I can travel a sesquimile
from my house and hear 'native English speakers' blather on in
a dialect that is incomprehensible a city block or two away.
Cui bono? Unless a native speaker be defined as one who
has no education, and, subject to the quality of his auditory
faculty, reproduces the endogenic idiom comprehensibly to his
fellows, the usefulness of the concept is dubious. It is the
lucrative stock in trade of the sociolinguist and the missionary,
but otherwise what is the use? The Copernicist can predict the
position of Mars whilst the Ptolemaist cannot. Can the
'linguist' pronounce this post in 23rd century English?

Jack

P.S. BTW, my compliments and thanks for your erudite commentary
on humanities.language.sanskrit whereon I lurk occasionally
as I try to fulfill a long neglected goal of learning Sanskrit.
I may eventually post a neophyte's query but I am still learning
the Devanagari.
bob
2005-12-05 06:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:52:51 -0500
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
I am also skeptical of the value of relying on so-called 'native
speakers' as sources of linguistic rectitude -- Esperantists
claims to have 'native speakers'!
I am a native Pig Latin speaker, but through years of separation from my
pool of fellow speakers, the niceties of Porcine Latinity are rapidly
fading.

Bob
bob
2005-12-05 07:01:39 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 23:52:51 -0500
Subject: Re: what does 'cognite' mean?
The Copernicist can predict the
position of Mars whilst the Ptolemaist cannot.
On a recent local public radio broadcast astrologers were agonizing over the
pending demotion of Pluto from its current planetary status, especially
since he and Jupiter have, of late, been house sitting for one another.

Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-05 11:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack O'Malley
humanities.language.sanskrit whereon I lurk occasionally
as I try to fulfill a long neglected goal of learning Sanskrit.
I may eventually post a neophyte's query but I am still learning
the Devanagari.
Thanks for your compliments - sorry I didn't see this before. I'm not
sure how far you are along, but if you want a nice, helpful hand in
learning Devanagari, you could do a lot worse than to take a look at
Rupert Snell's *Teach Yourself: Beginner's Hindi Script*. When it comes
to script matters, anything to do with Hindi is a reliable guide for
Sanskrit, because the values of the letters are largely identical. The
only real 'quirk' of spelling in Hindi is that in some cases the
'inherent vowel' is not pronounced, particularly at the ends of words,
while in Sanskrit it is always to be sounded - a point that many
Indians don't quite grasp. As a result of this, Sanskrit uses far more
conjuncts than Hindi, but those can really only be learnt with practice
reading actual texts.

By the way, what are you using to learn Sanskrit?

Neeraj Mathur

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