Discussion:
Hebrew, Greek, Latin?
(too old to reply)
Irwin Schwartz
2004-01-27 03:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Please forgive me if I'm talking to the wrong newsgroup.

I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've wanted to do
for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the classical languages. My
questions are:

(1) Which of the three (Hebrew, Latin, Greek) is the best (easiest?) first
attempt for an adult learner?
(2) If I live long enough, in which order should I learn them?
(3) Can you suggest any targeted newsgroups for what I want to do?

Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the wrong one,
can you suggest a more appropriate one?


Regards,
Irwin
http://members.aol.com/midimusic
Edward Casey
2004-01-27 05:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please forgive me if I'm talking to the wrong newsgroup.
I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've wanted to do
for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the classical languages. My
(1) Which of the three (Hebrew, Latin, Greek) is the best (easiest?) first
attempt for an adult learner?
(2) If I live long enough, in which order should I learn them?
(3) Can you suggest any targeted newsgroups for what I want to do?
Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the wrong one,
can you suggest a more appropriate one?
1) I don't know. For autodidacts maybe Latin is easier than koine Greek.
At least it uses our alphabet.
2) If your only reason for learning them is to read Judeo-Christian
scripture then I would recommend that you learn all three at once. There
are speakers of modern Hebrew and Greek that might serve as useful
learning resouces. Latin, though, is probably even further removed from
modern Italian than third century B.C. Hebrew and Greek are from their
modern reincarnations. Living languages are constantly polluted (or
vivified) by slang and by borrowings from contiguous speech communities.
3) There are six or eight groups that come up when you type in "bible" in
your newsreader subscription screen. Nothing under Torah or Tanakh. Maybe
humanities.classics is still talking about Greek. I haven't visited there
in a long time.

Eduardus
bob
2004-01-27 17:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:40:42 -0600
Subject: Re: Hebrew, Greek, Latin?
Maybe
humanities.classics is still talking about Greek. I haven't visited there
in a long time.
Probably, as you suggest, all three ayt oncw would be a good way to go.
Support for Hebrew might also be found at local synagogues. In my town this
is the case, and the local Chabad welcomes all to Hebrew classes, regardless
of religious persuasion. The American Bible Society puts out a lot of
material on biblical Hebrew and Greek. If one were to try the N.T. on a
crash course, then an analytical lexicon might be a help. Regarding where to
begin, I would probably recommend a good grammar of Attic Greek such as
Hanson and Quinn or the Gunion-Rutherford books on Greek Accidence and
Syntax. G&R are available online at Textkit. A background in Attic will
provide entry into a world of ancient commentary and patristic material. I
think BGreek and BHebrew are still active. One or both would be worth
subscribing to, and both have a number of experienced philologists
subscribed.

Bob
Edward Casey
2004-01-28 04:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:40:42 -0600
Subject: Re: Hebrew, Greek, Latin?
Maybe
humanities.classics is still talking about Greek. I haven't visited there
in a long time.
Probably, as you suggest, all three ayt oncw would be a good way to go.
Support for Hebrew might also be found at local synagogues. In my town this
is the case, and the local Chabad welcomes all to Hebrew classes, regardless
of religious persuasion. The American Bible Society puts out a lot of
material on biblical Hebrew and Greek. If one were to try the N.T. on a
crash course, then an analytical lexicon might be a help. Regarding where to
begin, I would probably recommend a good grammar of Attic Greek such as
Hanson and Quinn or the Gunion-Rutherford books on Greek Accidence and
Syntax. G&R are available online at Textkit. A background in Attic will
provide entry into a world of ancient commentary and patristic material. I
think BGreek and BHebrew are still active. One or both would be worth
subscribing to, and both have a number of experienced philologists
subscribed.
Bob
Also (if you have been monitoring the "other" Latin group lately) you will
have seen that Carlos Colombiano has just posted a notice about the Yahoo
Classical Greek group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graece/

I don't know anything about it other than it is almost two years old by
now and that its correspondents are required to post everything in Greek
only. This site is obviously not for rank beginners but it probably
wouldn't hurt to lurk around there (after downloading a Greek font of
course). I am not competent to judge the quality of the postings there
but, if I remember right, some of the better and more copious Latin
writers in the Grex expressed the most interest in starting it up.

Eduardus
bob
2004-01-28 20:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 22:12:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Hebrew, Greek, Latin?
Also (if you have been monitoring the "other" Latin group lately) you will
have seen that Carlos Colombiano has just posted a notice about the Yahoo
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Graece/
I don't know anything about it other than it is almost two years old by
now and that its correspondents are required to post everything in Greek
only. This site is obviously not for rank beginners but it probably
wouldn't hurt to lurk around there (after downloading a Greek font of
course). I am not competent to judge the quality of the postings there
but, if I remember right, some of the better and more copious Latin
writers in the Grex expressed the most interest in starting it up.
Since my typing skills with a standard keyboard are already legendary, I
have decided (at least for the present) to forego further dissemination of
my fame. I will for the moment spare the brotherhood of hellenists my
tribute of typographical errors of all sorts, and I am sure they bless me
for it.
http://web.gc.cuny.edu/dept/class/96syll.htm
Bob
Javi
2004-01-27 08:30:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please forgive me if I'm talking to the wrong newsgroup.
I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've
wanted to do for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the
(1) Which of the three (Hebrew, Latin, Greek) is the best (easiest?)
first attempt for an adult learner?
What languages do you already can read? Any Romance language, as French,
Italian or Spanish? Any Semitic language, as Arabic?
Post by Irwin Schwartz
(2) If I live long enough, in which order should I learn them?
If you want to read the Bible in its original languages, then you need Greek
for the Gospels and Hebrew and Greek (maybe Aramaic also?) for the Old
Testament.
Post by Irwin Schwartz
(3) Can you suggest any targeted newsgroups for what I want to do?
Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the
wrong one, can you suggest a more appropriate one?
Look for newsgroups with the word "bible" in its name.

--
Saludos cordiales
Javi

Mood conjugation:

I enjoy a drop
You never say no
He is an alcoholic

(Craig Brown)
Daniel Hoehr
2004-01-27 09:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please forgive me if I'm talking to the wrong newsgroup.
I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've wanted to do
for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the classical languages. My
(1) Which of the three (Hebrew, Latin, Greek) is the best (easiest?) first
attempt for an adult learner?
Hebrew is not too difficult once you've understood how the language
works and once you've got used to the alphabet and writing from right
to left. It is a nice language, very expressive. I enjoyed it very
much and I still go back to the Tanakh every now and again.

I found Greek in many ways similar to Latin, yet there is more stuff
to learn.

I can't say which is easiest, because Latin and Greek work in similar
ways, Hebrew kis completely different (you'll have to get used to
things like status constructus, status absolutus; there are no tenses
as in English, Greek, Latin, German, French, etc, there are different
conjugations that can indicate the order of events.). It also depends
on what other languages you already know.
Post by Irwin Schwartz
(2) If I live long enough, in which order should I learn them?
The choice, of course is yours, but starting with Latin is always
good. Then do Hebrew and then Greek. I took Hebrew and Greek (Koine)
courses at university at the same time, also possible, but a lot of work.
Post by Irwin Schwartz
(3) Can you suggest any targeted newsgroups for what I want to do?
For Latin this seems to be the right place here. I'm sorry, I don't
know about any Hebrew and Greek groups.
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the wrong one,
can you suggest a more appropriate one?
Regards,
Irwin
http://members.aol.com/midimusic
DH
--
"Don't project. Remember, _I'm_ the Reformed Catholic, here."
St. Mark Johnson on arcr-c, 15 May 2003
<***@4ax.com>
rolleston
2004-01-27 14:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
The choice, of course is yours, but starting with Latin is always
good. Then do Hebrew and then Greek. I took Hebrew and Greek (Koine)
A valliant effort, no doubt! And you avoided the
aforementioned brain haemorrhage? I only did the
one and felt distinctly queasy.

R.
Daniel Hoehr
2004-01-28 09:52:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by rolleston
Post by Daniel Hoehr
The choice, of course is yours, but starting with Latin is always
good. Then do Hebrew and then Greek. I took Hebrew and Greek (Koine)
A valliant effort, no doubt! And you avoided the
aforementioned brain haemorrhage?
I simply didn't have the time to look at it properly, but I hope I'll
find some time over the weekend.
Post by rolleston
I only did the
one and felt distinctly queasy.
Good I bought new aspirins :-)

Well, I studied Catholic theology for a while and thus a Greek course
was unavoidable. I didn't particularly enjoy it and doing Greek and
Hebrew in the same semester was too much. I can still find my way
through New Testament texts with a dictionary and a grammar and since I
started brushing up my virtually non-existent remains of school Latin in
November, I've gone back to the NT in Greek on occasion and all of a
sudden I seem to get the drift again. But at uni I somehow got stuck on
Hebrew and, although I didn't have to, I did another year and passed the
Hebraicum exam. It was clear I wanted to specialise in Biblical
exegesis, so the question was whether to do NT or AT. The NT is shorter
but in Greek and, having passed the Hebraicum, I went for the OT, simply
because I enjoyed Hebrew more than Greek. I thought I could avoid Greek
on a large scale then, but what I completely forgot about was that the
books that were on the shelves next to the Biblia Hebraica
Stuttgartensia had the title "Septuaginta" and were not on the shelves
for the purpose of decoration... Tough....

Daniel
Post by rolleston
R.
Isaac Hummel
2004-01-27 16:35:31 UTC
Permalink
Irwin Schwartz wrote:
<snip>
Post by Irwin Schwartz
I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've wanted to do
for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the classical languages. My
<snip>
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the wrong one,
can you suggest a more appropriate one?
Regards,
Irwin
http://members.aol.com/midimusic
If and when you decide to learn Biblical Greek, the B-Greek mailing list
will be of value to you. Check it out here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/
--
Isaac Hummel
http://www.ijh.us
Irwin Schwartz
2004-01-29 14:59:38 UTC
Permalink
Thank you all for your kind advice. It looks like it's going to be Latin.
Regards,
Irwin
http://members.aol.com/midimusic
Evan McElravy
2004-01-31 22:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Latin is probably the best place to start from in learning ancient
languages. As others have mentioned, Greek and Hebrew will be of
considerably more direct use to you in reading scripture (though, at least
for the N.T., Jerome's Vulgate is almost an exact, word for word paraphrase;
I don't know any Hebrew at all, so I'm not qualified to comment one way or
another about it), but most introductory Greek materials assume some
knowledge of Latin -- especially classical resources like the Liddell &
Scott Lexicon and the Smyth Grammar. So while it may be the long way around
to learning Greek, I think it's still the best way to go. Get Wheelock's
Latin -- hands down, it is the best introductory manual for the
self-learner, and is available in every Barnes & Nobles or Border's or other
good bookstore.

I'm not sure what books are out there for learning Biblical Greek, but I'd
recommend simply learning the Classical language (I think Hanson & Quinn is
probably the best manual). You'll have accessible a wider range of
literature than only scripture, and Koiné is just a simplified variant of
Attic anyway, with some different vocabulary conventions and a more "modern"
word order. If you can read classical Greek, the N.T. is easy; the reverse
is not at all true.

Once you get started with Greek, I'd recommend trying to get your hands on a
good Interlinear edition of the N.T.: this is the Greek text with English
glosses of each word beneath (and sometimes the King James or other formal
translation in the margin); you still have to know your grammar to put the
words together properly, but it cuts down on a lot of flipping through
lexica and commentaries, and allows for much more natural, pleasurable
reading.

Best of luck,

Evan McElravy
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Thank you all for your kind advice. It looks like it's going to be Latin.
Regards,
Irwin
http://members.aol.com/midimusic
Will Parsons
2004-01-28 02:24:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Irwin Schwartz
Please forgive me if I'm talking to the wrong newsgroup.
I'm recently retired and I'm excited about pursuing something I've wanted to do
for a long time. I would like to read the Bible in the classical languages. My
(1) Which of the three (Hebrew, Latin, Greek) is the best (easiest?) first
attempt for an adult learner?
(2) If I live long enough, in which order should I learn them?
(3) Can you suggest any targeted newsgroups for what I want to do?
Please accept my apologies if this is the wrong forum. If it is the wrong one,
can you suggest a more appropriate one?
For what it's worth, I can tell you of my own experiences with all three:

1) I took formal instruction in Latin for a couple of years back in the
60's (this was my first experience in learning a foreign language).
I think you will find Latin difficult in comparison with a modern
European languages, both because of the its grammatical structure and
sentence construction. However, memorization of vocabulary will be
much helped by the numerous English words derived indirectly or directly
from Latin. (I think knowledge of Latin helps more in acquisition of
a Romance language that vice versa.) Moreover, if you wish to read the
Scriptures in Latin, I think you will have a pleasant surprise if you
have been wrestling with classical authors. At least, it was a surprise
to me how easy Jerome seemed in comparison with Caesar. Of course, if
your primary desire is to read the Scriptures in the original languages,
then Latin must take a secondary seat to Greek and Hebrew, so you may
wish on those grounds to study Greek and/or Hebrew first.

2) I started studying Greek about a year after Latin, on my own. I
specifically wanted to be able to read the New Testament in the original
Greek. Unfortunately, the only teaching books I could find in my local
libary were for classical Greek and modern Greek. Both were helpful,
the classical Greek primer more than the modern Greek one. If you were
to acquire a decent knowledge of classical Greek, then you would find
the reading the New Testament pretty easy. (Reading the Gospels after
reading passages from Xenophon's Anabasis is comparable to reading the
Vulgate after Caesar's Gallic Wars.) But I think your best path
is to find a grammar of New Testament Greek and start with that. It
will be a lot easier and will serve (if you wish) as basis to branch
out into classical authors or modern Greek. I should mention that my
own study of Greek was much helped by my previous study of Latin (but
I would think the study of Latin would also be much helped after studying
Greek). This is because stucturally they have much in common. In
accidence, I think Greek (Koine) is somewhat (though not a lot) more
complex than Latin; its syntax is somewhat simpler. There are not quite
so many English derivatives of Greek words as there are of Latin.
I wouldn't let the fact that Greek uses a different alphabet discourage
you. Getting used to the alphabet is a problem encountered early but
easily overcome. After studing many languages over a period of time,
Greek remains my all-time favourite.

3) I started studying Hebrew probably soon after starting my study of Greek.
I think that of the three languages under consideration, Hebrew is
basically the easiest. This in spite of the fact that it has a complex
verbal conjugation, based on different principles from the Greek/Latin
model, and there are far fewer English words that can be associated with
Hebrew words. Also, because of the much wider time-span in which the
Hebrew Bible was written, there are much more "hapax legomena" in the
Hebrew Scriptures than in the Greek New Testament. Of the three languages
in question, I am least competent in Hebrew, not because (I think) that
Hebrew is innately more difficult, but because my own tastes led me to the
other two. As in the case of Greek, the fact that Hebrew uses a different
alphabet should not discourage you.

Ultimately, it depends on what you want. But based on what you have written,
I'd say, tackle (Koine) Greek first, then Hebrew. I think you may find
Latin easier if you have some Greek behind you (though I did things in the
opposite order).

Good luck. I think you will find the study of any of the three rewarding.

(Postscript: You didn't ask about Arabic, although it is a Semitic language
like Hebrew, it is much, much more difficult. Don't try this one unless you
are really determined.)
--
+----------------------------------------------------+
| Will Parsons |
| Modified e-mail address: ***@cshorexyz.com |
| To reply: delete "xyz" from domain |
+----------------------------------------------------+
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...