Pimsleur Latin ?

[John Westerlage]

The following was found at

***@vlists.net

for those who may have interest.

John

======================

For those who are interested (and apologies to those who aren't):

I'm starting a project to create free audio recordings to help
people learn conversational Latin. My goal is to create high
quality audio lessons (in the spirit of Pimsleur) for
conversational Latin that will be completely free for people
(teachers, students, whoever) to download and learn from.

This is going to be a large undertaking. At this point, I'm just
poking around to see how much interest there is in getting it off
the ground.

We'll have to plan a study outline, each audio lesson, write
scripts, and then of course record them.

If you're at all interested, email me. I'll be starting a
discussion list to help facilitate the project's development.

Some information about the project will be put at:
http://www.math.umd.edu/~olsson/speak-latin/

fac ut bene valeatis!
j. scott olsson

======================

Hi again all,

Many many people responded to my previous mail about starting a
project to create free, instructional recordings for
conversational Latin. I mentioned I was in the process of setting
up the mailing list.

The mailing list has now been created. Please, if you're
interested in helping out, check the new project page at:

http://flclp.sourceforge.net/

You can find information there about how to join the list and the
discussion.

Additionally, if you respond to this mail and ask me, I can add
you to the list myself.

gratias ago vobis!
scott

======================

[Klaus Scholl]

There are People who have a good Skill to write the Scripts,
and there are People who have a good Voice to speak the Text into
MP3-Format. I would keep both apart, and ask for Scriptors,
put the Scripts online, and ask then for Speakers.

Greet from Klaus.

[bob]

Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:27:50 GMT
Subject: Pimsleur Latin ?
The following was found at
for those who may have interest.
John
======================
I'm starting a project to create free audio recordings to help
people learn conversational Latin. My goal is to create high
quality audio lessons (in the spirit of Pimsleur) for
conversational Latin that will be completely free for people
(teachers, students, whoever) to download and learn from.
This is going to be a large undertaking. At this point, I'm just
poking around to see how much interest there is in getting it off
the ground.
We'll have to plan a study outline, each audio lesson, write
scripts, and then of course record them.
If you're at all interested, email me. I'll be starting a
discussion list to help facilitate the project's development.
http://www.math.umd.edu/~olsson/speak-latin/
fac ut bene valeatis!
j. scott olsson
======================
Hi again all,
Many many people responded to my previous mail about starting a
project to create free, instructional recordings for
conversational Latin. I mentioned I was in the process of setting
up the mailing list.
The mailing list has now been created. Please, if you're
http://flclp.sourceforge.net/
You can find information there about how to join the list and the
discussion.
Additionally, if you respond to this mail and ask me, I can add
you to the list myself.
gratias ago vobis!
scott
======================

While I don't decry the effort, I am both amused by and skeptical of the
attempt to transform oral Latin into a widespread or a mass movement:

1.) since there are very few speakers out there who are fluent or appreciate
fluency, I think that the effort becomes a matter of the blind leading the
blind;
2.) given the paucity of "fluent speakers", the ongoing controversies, even
among professionals (I would refer you as an example to the errant treatment
of prodelision in the Harvard readings by Dick Tarant, Kathleen Coleman et
al.) of the nuances of quantity, speech rhythm, relationship of speech
accent and quantity, etc., I question the ability of the vast majority of
teachers who use this method in any of its variants (cf. Oerberg, Traupman,
etc.) to utilize, communicate, and critique those elements of phraseology
such as tonic stress, phrase intonation, etc. which form the background of
living speech. While I was a fellow traveler among the Jesuits, I met older
priests who, I think, could have staked a claim to fluency. But even among
these one could always detect, (often it was so prominent as to not need
detection) the tell tale traces of the speaker's native language
pronunciation. Otherwise it would, as might be expected among the Church
trained, partake of an Italianate flavor. Even Reginaldus noster betrays a
sound not a little reminiscent of old Milwukee (not the beer);
3.) even in the matter of vocabulary there is still no consensus as to
whether one should follow the canons of the ancients with respect to genres
and vocabulary selection. Again even among lexicographers of neo - Latin the
choice of neologisms and/or circumlocutions for the nova verba pro rebus
novae of which Cicero spoke very often shows very little uniformity or
consensus.
4.) The same may be said of grammar, syntax, nuances of style, etc. While
Cicero, I suppose, still remains the Academic style, A Ciceronian "Summa",
for example, would, I think, degenerate into unintelligibility. And again,
beyond the broad matter of sentence structure, we are driven back at this
juncture to considerations of forms, vocabulary and the like: Cicero vs.
Tacitus, etc. Will the vocabulary, diction, syntactical variations, and
phraseology of the poets, historians, and chroniclers form the staples of
good contemporary Latinity? If so, where will we draw a line of demarcation,
and why? If not, why not?
5.) All of this brings us back to what I consider the fundamental flaw: a
lack of native speakers upon whose examples one might fruitfully model
imitations. While, as was the case for Hebrew, there has remained a small
groupof scholars, univeraity based and Church based, for whom a tradition of
communication in Latin has remained vital, it is, I fear, subject, despite
the nay saying and aux contraires of devotees, severely balkanized with
regard to the issues previously raised.

Hence I will continue to follow with amusements the efforts of the various
proponents of the so called oral and natural methods of Latin Language
acquisition, but I will not delude myself into thinking that there is
anything natural or even ultimately more wholesome about learning by oral
examples supervised by a teacher who is also learning than there is by
learning from a well structured course in Latin grammar conducted by a
knowledgeable and experienced teacher who is more than a lesson or two ahead
of his/her students. It seems that there is a tautology of errors in this
method, all issuing from the fact that the teachers are communicating
linguistic artifacts for which they actually have little or no hard
linguistic experience, artifacts which are probably communicated by
similarly afflicted individuals. Attendance at a conventiculum or a Latin
language cocktail party, while not deplorable, is not a year in Florence or
Paris.

So I remain skeptical but not unsupportive.

Bob

[[e-mail]]

Post by bob
1.) since there are very few speakers out there who are fluent or
appreciate fluency, I think that the effort becomes a matter of the blind
leading the blind;

The hope is that we'll get a few people who are at least near sighted to
help on the project. I agree that this will be a significant challenge.

Insofar as we overcome these problems however, the project will be
quite valuable. Only moreso because it will be free: 1) there will be
very few obstacles preventing Joe Enthusiast from at least hearing a
not-half-bad pronunciation and 2) everyone will be free to improve the
project as scholarship and knowledge increases. There won't be a single,
final, release. There will be versions, extensions, add-ons, modules
emphasizing different vocab and grammar, varied paths through the core
lessons, and so on. There might be an Ecclesiastical and a Classical
version of the project. We'll see where the interest takes us.

Post by bob
4.) The same may be said of grammar, syntax, nuances of style, etc. While
Cicero, I suppose, still remains the Academic style, A Ciceronian "Summa",
for example, would, I think, degenerate into unintelligibility. And again,
beyond the broad matter of sentence structure, we are driven back at this
juncture to considerations of forms, vocabulary and the like: Cicero vs.
Tacitus, etc. Will the vocabulary, diction, syntactical variations, and
phraseology of the poets, historians, and chroniclers form the staples of
good contemporary Latinity? If so, where will we draw a line of
demarcation, and why? If not, why not?

Yes, but this is as true for a textbook as it is for an audio recording. Of
course, most people can learn something from textbooks despite these
difficulties.

Post by bob
Hence I will continue to follow with amusements the efforts of the various
proponents of the so called oral and natural methods of Latin Language
acquisition, but I will not delude myself into thinking that there is
anything natural or even ultimately more wholesome about learning by oral
examples supervised by a teacher who is also learning than there is by
learning from a well structured course in Latin grammar conducted by a
knowledgeable and experienced teacher who is more than a lesson or two
ahead of his/her students.

I don't think it's an either-or.

pax!
scott

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:01:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
very few obstacles preventing Joe Enthusiast from at least hearing a
not-half-bad pronunciation

That would be a contemptible standard for a modern language. What makes it
acceptable for an ancient one? This cuts to the chase: in what sense are you
'speaking' Latin? I myself am an adherent of the "garbage in, garbage out"
theory, and your statement of pedagogical design is - at the risk of being
offensive - definitely "garbage in, garbage out".

everyone will be free to improve the
project as scholarship and knowledge increases.

There is a library full of scholarship, and a plethora of concord, discord,
noncommittal, and mutual admiration.

There might be an Ecclesiastical and a Classical
version of the project.

Perhaps I am way off base here, but I think this is a fundamental
misunderstanding of both the linguistic and pedagogical principles involved
in your undertaking.

We'll see where the interest takes us.

If my dear old French teacher had proceeded along these lines I'd be reading
minimally texted comic books and singing Edith Piaf songs.

Yes, but this is as true for a textbook as it is for an audio recording. Of
course, most people can learn something from textbooks despite these
difficulties.

A text book, unless it uses the IPA (and then is of use primarily to trained
linguists and phoneticians), as do textbooks of dialect pronunciation,
describes auditory phenomena via print, gives only a description and
approximation of correct pronunciation. So, if an auditory aid only
approximates, what good is it? Beyond that, what of those finer nuances I
mentioned, such as intonation, speech rhythm, tonic stress, etc. ? What and
who will be the model(s) for these? This is the stuff which comes of close
contact with native speakers or nonnative speakers who have become
thoroughly imbued with the speech artifacts of native speakers.

I will remain comfortable in my doubt and wish you well. And I also hope
that you don't produce another generation of semiliterates who, lacking
competence in English grammar and syntax, come to the universities deluded
by the misplaced belief that they know something they in fact don't.
Unfortunately they lack the resourcefulness and opportunity of those
mediaeval folks who were able to stuff their Buridanus into a sack and toss
him into the Seine.

Bob

[bob]

Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:40:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 03:01:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
very few obstacles preventing Joe Enthusiast from at least hearing a
not-half-bad pronunciation

That would be a contemptible standard for a modern language. What makes it
acceptable for an ancient one? This cuts to the chase: in what sense are you
'speaking' Latin? I myself am an adherent of the "garbage in, garbage out"
theory, and your statement of pedagogical design is - at the risk of being
offensive - definitely "garbage in, garbage out".

everyone will be free to improve the
project as scholarship and knowledge increases.

There is a library full of scholarship, and a plethora of concord, discord,
noncommittal, and mutual admiration.

There might be an Ecclesiastical and a Classical
version of the project.

Perhaps I am way off base here, but I think this is a fundamental
misunderstanding of both the linguistic and pedagogical principles involved
in your undertaking.

We'll see where the interest takes us.

If my dear old French teacher had proceeded along these lines I'd be reading
minimally texted comic books and singing Edith Piaf songs.

Yes, but this is as true for a textbook as it is for an audio recording. Of
course, most people can learn something from textbooks despite these
difficulties.

A text book, unless it uses the IPA (and then is of use primarily to trained
linguists and phoneticians), as do textbooks of dialect pronunciation,
describes auditory phenomena via print, gives only a description and
approximation of correct pronunciation. So, if an auditory aid only
approximates, what good is it? Beyond that, what of those finer nuances I
mentioned, such as intonation, speech rhythm, tonic stress, etc. ? What and
who will be the model(s) for these? This is the stuff which comes of close
contact with native speakers or nonnative speakers who have become
thoroughly imbued with the speech artifacts of native speakers.
I will remain comfortable in my doubt and wish you well. And I also hope
that you don't produce another generation of semiliterates who, lacking
competence in English grammar and syntax, come to the universities deluded
by the misplaced belief that they know something they in fact don't.
Unfortunately they lack the resourcefulness and opportunity of those
mediaeval folks who were able to stuff their Buridanus into a sack and toss
him into the Seine.
Bob

Addendum:

I forgot to mention that nothing you have written in any way resembles
Professor Pimsleur's method which involves issues, as an example, of staged
presentation and precisely determined intervals of repetition, each of which
is developed out of empirical observations on both pedagogy and language
acquisition.

Bob

[[e-mail]]

Post by bob
I forgot to mention that nothing you have written in any way resembles
Professor Pimsleur's method which involves issues, as an example, of
staged presentation and precisely determined intervals of repetition, each
of which is developed out of empirical observations on both pedagogy and
language acquisition.

1) I'm not a pedagogue (and won't pretend to be one). I also don't need to
pretend to be one (i.e., I don't intend to undertake this project alone!)

2) I didn't name this thread.

pax,
scott

[[e-mail]]

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
very few obstacles preventing Joe Enthusiast from at least hearing a
not-half-bad pronunciation

That would be a contemptible standard for a modern language. What makes it
acceptable for an ancient one? This cuts to the chase: in what sense are
you 'speaking' Latin? I myself am an adherent of the "garbage in, garbage
out" theory, and your statement of pedagogical design is - at the risk of
being offensive - definitely "garbage in, garbage out".

Are you saying that every person who today pronounces Latin is only
producing garbage?

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
everyone will be free to improve the
project as scholarship and knowledge increases.

There is a library full of scholarship, and a plethora of concord,
discord, noncommittal, and mutual admiration.

Scholarship hasn't yet produced free teaching audio. It will, and it will
likely be bad, but will at least then be able to become better. It will also
be fun, and people will be able to learn something from it.

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
There might be an Ecclesiastical and a Classical
version of the project.

Perhaps I am way off base here, but I think this is a fundamental
misunderstanding of both the linguistic and pedagogical principles
involved in your undertaking.

You might elaborate. I either don't understand you or you didn't understand
me.

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
Yes, but this is as true for a textbook as it is for an audio recording.
Of course, most people can learn something from textbooks despite these
difficulties.

A text book, unless it uses the IPA (and then is of use primarily to
trained linguists and phoneticians), as do textbooks of dialect
pronunciation, describes auditory phenomena via print, gives only a
description and approximation of correct pronunciation. So, if an auditory
aid only approximates, what good is it? Beyond that, what of those finer
nuances I mentioned, such as intonation, speech rhythm, tonic stress, etc.
? What and who will be the model(s) for these? This is the stuff which
comes of close contact with native speakers or nonnative speakers who have
become thoroughly imbued with the speech artifacts of native speakers.

I was referring to the syntax, not the phonetics (i.e., I would consider a
program to be valuable if it assisted someone in the learning of grammar).

Regarding phonetics: if you don't have decent recordings, by your own
argument you are relegated to something which can only be worse:
descriptive text. Unless you are suggesting people just stop thinking about
how Latin sounds entirely, I fail to see where you are going.

pax,

scott

[B.T. Raven]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
very few obstacles preventing Joe Enthusiast from at least hearing a
not-half-bad pronunciation

That would be a contemptible standard for a modern language. What makes it
acceptable for an ancient one? This cuts to the chase: in what sense are
you 'speaking' Latin? I myself am an adherent of the "garbage in, garbage
out" theory, and your statement of pedagogical design is - at the risk of
being offensive - definitely "garbage in, garbage out".

Are you saying that every person who today pronounces Latin is only
producing garbage?

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
everyone will be free to improve the
project as scholarship and knowledge increases.

There is a library full of scholarship, and a plethora of concord,
discord, noncommittal, and mutual admiration.

Scholarship hasn't yet produced free teaching audio. It will, and it will
likely be bad, but will at least then be able to become better. It will also
be fun, and people will be able to learn something from it.

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
There might be an Ecclesiastical and a Classical
version of the project.

Perhaps I am way off base here, but I think this is a fundamental
misunderstanding of both the linguistic and pedagogical principles
involved in your undertaking.

You might elaborate. I either don't understand you or you didn't understand
me.

Post by bob

Post by ***@verizon.net
Yes, but this is as true for a textbook as it is for an audio recording.
Of course, most people can learn something from textbooks despite these
difficulties.

A text book, unless it uses the IPA (and then is of use primarily to
trained linguists and phoneticians), as do textbooks of dialect
pronunciation, describes auditory phenomena via print, gives only a
description and approximation of correct pronunciation. So, if an auditory
aid only approximates, what good is it? Beyond that, what of those finer
nuances I mentioned, such as intonation, speech rhythm, tonic stress, etc.
? What and who will be the model(s) for these? This is the stuff which
comes of close contact with native speakers or nonnative speakers who have
become thoroughly imbued with the speech artifacts of native

speakers.

Post by ***@verizon.net
I was referring to the syntax, not the phonetics (i.e., I would consider a
program to be valuable if it assisted someone in the learning of grammar).
Regarding phonetics: if you don't have decent recordings, by your own
descriptive text. Unless you are suggesting people just stop thinking about
how Latin sounds entirely, I fail to see where you are going.
pax,
scott

There already exist many hours of high quality spoken Latin on CD and
audio tape. Sonkowsky, Suitbert Siedl, Wilefried Stroh, Daitz,
Eichenseer, and Egger have all made recordings designed to help with the
oral production of Latin.

Eduardus

[[e-mail]]

Post by B.T. Raven
There already exist many hours of high quality spoken Latin on CD and
audio tape. Sonkowsky, Suitbert Siedl, Wilefried Stroh, Daitz,
Eichenseer, and Egger have all made recordings designed to help with the
oral production of Latin.
Eduardus

Thanks! I was unaware of these, I will look into them.

pax,
scott

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by ***@verizon.net

Post by B.T. Raven
There already exist many hours of high quality spoken Latin on CD and
audio tape. Sonkowsky, Suitbert Siedl, Wilefried Stroh, Daitz,
Eichenseer, and Egger have all made recordings designed to help with the
oral production of Latin.
Eduardus

Thanks! I was unaware of these, I will look into them.

... and into this:
http://lilt.ilstu.edu/drjclassics2/Files/latinlanggrammar.shtm

Johannes

[Klaus Scholl]

Post by B.T. Raven
There already exist many hours of high quality spoken Latin on CD and
audio tape. Sonkowsky, Suitbert Siedl, Wilefried Stroh, Daitz,
Eichenseer, and Egger have all made recordings designed to help with the
oral production of Latin.
Eduardus

Stroh, Eichenseer, & co. have other Aims,
they recitate classical Literature,
with near to no Dialoges,
a complete unlively unvernacular Language,
frustrating for 'this' Audience:
Beginners who want to hear/speak,
who want lively Language.

If you ask me how Text-Audio-Material for Beginners should look like,
i can refer to "Chloé" (it's in french,
but man could simply translate the whole Story,
with some Copyright-Admissions):
it is a complete and nice Story,
with both Text and Speech,
multiple Voices in a real-life-simulating Athmosphere,
full of vernacular Dialoges.
Take it as Example:

http://www.ur.se/ur/sok/frameset_web.html?/chloe/index.html

You get a proffessional Translation of it for about 500 Euro.
This does't include Speech, FX and Web-Layout.

Greet.

[bob]

Organization: T-Online
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:24:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Stroh, Eichenseer, & co. have other Aims,
they recitate classical Literature,
with near to no Dialoges,
a complete unlively unvernacular Language,
Beginners who want to hear/speak,
who want lively Language.

Please tell us what would constitute, for a dead language whose only
vestiges have been transmitted through a corpus which you call
"unvernacular" (sic), a "vernacular" language. Perhaps, Klauss, your
difficulties would be considerably relieved if, like the classicists of
yore, you were to look elsewhere than the classics for the relief of your
frustrations.

Bob

[Klaus Scholl]

Post by bob

Organization: T-Online
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:24:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Stroh, Eichenseer, & co. have other Aims,
they recitate classical Literature,
with near to no Dialoges,
a complete unlively unvernacular Language,
Beginners who want to hear/speak,
who want lively Language.

Please tell us what would constitute, for a dead language whose only
vestiges have been transmitted through a corpus which you call
"unvernacular" (sic), a "vernacular" language. Perhaps, Klauss, your
difficulties would be considerably relieved if, like the classicists of
yore, you were to look elsewhere than the classics for the relief of your
frustrations.
Bob

Im not educated enough to discuss with you about this Topic,
but you as certainly know not all classic Literature is unvernacular,
we get alot vernacular Expressions from Plautus, Terence,
and Petronius, with "classical Literature" i did rather refer to
the typical Reading-Canon. You know all that.

For my Part i prefer it, to not demotivate
Pioneers with telling them how useless, how vain
their Ideas are, and that "the Proposal or Invention already exists".
Man can complain how difficult it may beto find the "true"
Pronounciation of Latin, man can complain how semi-Professionell the
Outcome will probably become, but i respect the Intention to
venture into Terram novam, and to set up free latin Audio-Material
for Beginners is a Terra nova.

Greet from Klaus.

[Johannes Patruus]

Post by Klaus Scholl

Post by bob

Organization: T-Online
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:24:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Stroh, Eichenseer, & co. have other Aims,
they recitate classical Literature,
with near to no Dialoges,
a complete unlively unvernacular Language,
Beginners who want to hear/speak,
who want lively Language.

Please tell us what would constitute, for a dead language whose only
vestiges have been transmitted through a corpus which you call
"unvernacular" (sic), a "vernacular" language. Perhaps, Klauss, your
difficulties would be considerably relieved if, like the classicists of
yore, you were to look elsewhere than the classics for the relief of your
frustrations.
Bob

Im not educated enough to discuss with you about this Topic,
but you as certainly know not all classic Literature is unvernacular,
we get alot vernacular Expressions from Plautus, Terence,
and Petronius, with "classical Literature" i did rather refer to
the typical Reading-Canon. You know all that.
For my Part i prefer it, to not demotivate
Pioneers with telling them how useless, how vain
their Ideas are, and that "the Proposal or Invention already exists".
Man can complain how difficult it may beto find the "true"
Pronounciation of Latin, man can complain how semi-Professionell the
Outcome will probably become, but i respect the Intention to
venture into Terram novam, and to set up free latin Audio-Material
for Beginners is a Terra nova.

Indeed, and it would be disappointing if our Pioneer's enthusiasm were to
be incinerated by the pyroclastic flows of naysaying.

Fortunately there's no evidence of this in his latest forum posts:
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=43801

Johannes

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:27:47 -0000
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Indeed, and it would be disappointing if our Pioneer's enthusiasm were to
be incinerated by the pyroclastic flows of naysaying.

Put a coin in the enthusiasm's mouth and nudge it gently into the boat.

Bob

[Jack O'Malley]

bob wrote in message ...

Post by bob

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:27:47 -0000
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Indeed, and it would be disappointing if our Pioneer's enthusiasm were to
be incinerated by the pyroclastic flows of naysaying.

Put a coin in the enthusiasm's mouth and nudge it gently into the boat.

But these enthousiazontes won't pay the boatman's obol, I fear. They
want to grapple with the hundred-headed hound all over again.

I will say that I am relieved to have been exculpated from the stigma
of being a nabob of negativism and that the onus of vesuvian vituperation
has fallen squarely upon you. ;-)

There used to be a series for conversational French done by a Yale
professor, Pierre Capretz, called "French in Action". What I recall
particularly was the callimastian actress who played the part of
Mireille, Valérie Allain. I dreamt troubled dreams in French for
the entire series. Ah, pour une seule nuit, je risquerais le sac
et la Seine!

But I can't help thinking that the final product of our Latin in Action
may wind up looking like that Monty Python scene - "Romanes eunt
domus" minus the wit.

Jack
(naysaing again)

[John Briggs]

Post by Jack O'Malley
bob wrote in message ...

Post by bob

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:27:47 -0000
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Indeed, and it would be disappointing if our Pioneer's enthusiasm
were to be incinerated by the pyroclastic flows of naysaying.

Put a coin in the enthusiasm's mouth and nudge it gently into the boat.

But these enthousiazontes won't pay the boatman's obol, I fear. They
want to grapple with the hundred-headed hound all over again.
I will say that I am relieved to have been exculpated from the stigma
of being a nabob of negativism and that the onus of vesuvian
vituperation has fallen squarely upon you. ;-)
There used to be a series for conversational French done by a Yale
professor, Pierre Capretz, called "French in Action". What I recall
particularly was the callimastian actress who played the part of
Mireille, Valérie Allain. I dreamt troubled dreams in French for
the entire series. Ah, pour une seule nuit, je risquerais le sac
et la Seine!
But I can't help thinking that the final product of our Latin in
Action may wind up looking like that Monty Python scene - "Romanes
eunt
domus" minus the wit.

Or "Sebastiane" without the, er, ...

[Jack O'Malley]

John Briggs wrote in message ...

Post by John Briggs

Post by Jack O'Malley
But I can't help thinking that the final product of our Latin in
Action may wind up looking like that Monty Python scene - "Romanes
eunt
domus" minus the wit.

Or "Sebastiane" without the, er, ...

Gasp! I refuse to squander even my not-so-valuable time watching
such rot.

Mind you, I've nothing against lurid cinematic sadism and homoerotism
per se if done in an aesthetically cathartic manner. I'm an Aristotelian
to the marrow. But I condemn categorically the gratuitous exploitation
of prurient sex and violence to further these crass profiteers' hidden
agenda of reviving colloquial Latin amongst the hoi polloi. It is a
contumelious outrage to the scrupulous classicist. Why, the next thing
you know, some Hollywood mountebank will bring Oberammergau to
the big screen with grizzly special effects merely to mock classicist and
Orientalist alike. There's an éminence grise jésuitique in it somewhere.

Now, what I would pay to see is the aforementioned French thespienne
in the rôle of Sappho cavorting with sylphidic étudiantes while purring
sweetly in lyric Aeolic. Mine is a strictly linguistic interest, you understand.


Jack

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:26:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
There used to be a series for conversational French done by a Yale
professor, Pierre Capretz, called "French in Action". What I recall
particularly was the callimastian actress who played the part of
Mireille, Valérie Allain.

Yes, I remember at age 16 we went to see the Comedie Francaise film of Le
Bourgeois Gentilhomme. I was so struck by the civility and culture of the
French that they were so able to blend a fine admixture of Lully's music,
Moliere's verse, and a stunning cavalcade of spiritually uplifting peerless
globes.

Bob

[Jack O'Malley]

Johannes Patruus wrote in message <***@individual.net>...
[ Man has the from the Klaus written Stuff with Regret outgesnipped.
Jasus, this syntax could grow on you. ]

Post by Johannes Patruus
Indeed, and it would be disappointing if our Pioneer's enthusiasm were to
be incinerated by the pyroclastic flows of naysaying.

Num de me scilicet vituperas? ;-)

Ceterum cacoethes cacolaliae crebro contemno.

Post by Johannes Patruus
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=43801

One of whom is a native Italian speaker who purports to out-Latin
the oral competition. While my money is on this horse, I quease
at the angular momentum of the resident of the Gaetan roundtower.


Jack

[bob]

Organization: T-Online
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:50:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
i did rather refer to
the typical Reading-Canon. You know all that.

Everyone you've named is part of the so called reading canon, but as to
whether any or all of them are suitable models for learning the language, I
remain skeptical. Regarding Petronius, since his work is essentially a
burlesque, what treasures would you cull from it as examples of good Latin
usage? Why not include wall graffiti, latrine inscriptions, etc.? Slave
epitaphs, etc.? As for the comedians, their richness as sources for the
flavor of ordinary speech is by now a commonplace.

I don't see the point behind the reinvention of the wheel in this instance.
Oerberg is out there. So is Traupman. Kathleen Coleman and Richard Tarant
are available free on line. While they all may fail to meet your standards
of what is "vernacular", at least they have the distinct advantage of
knowing the language, and they all have loads of teaching experience from
which has emerged a method and a course built around that method, enriched
by years of scholarship and teaching experience. The Colloquia of Erasmus
are available for free on line, as are oral drills from 17th century Oxonian
grammar courses.

For my Part i prefer it, to not demotivate
Pioneers with telling them how useless, how vain
their Ideas are, and that "the Proposal or Invention already exists".

Why not?

Man can complain how difficult it may beto find the "true"
Pronounciation of Latin, man can complain how semi-Professionell the
Outcome will probably become, but i respect the Intention to
venture into Terram novam, and to set up free latin Audio-Material
for Beginners is a Terra nova.

It is even more difficult when it is an exercise in participatory democracy.
When I consider this effort I am reminded of the canal that Stalin attempted
to dig by hand without the guidance of competent engineers, motivated by
proletarian zeal and faith in the innovative, revolutionary spirit. It got
dug, but it wasn't deep enough to handle the draft of the ships.

Bob

[Johannes Patruus]

The Colloquia of Erasmus are available for free on line,
as are oral drills from 17th century Oxonian grammar courses.

I know where the Colloquia are but not the 17th Century oral drills
(unless you count John Harmar's Praxis Grammatica as drills
http://tinyurl.com/4xnl5).

Could you give us some pointers, please?

Johannes

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:03:35 -0000
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
(unless you count John Harmar's Praxis Grammatica as drills
http://tinyurl.com/4xnl5).

I do, and I've used them in the first few weeks of an intensive class.

Bob

[Thot]

Is it wise to judge "a priori"?
Is is not more fair to see the outcome of the project and then cast your
vote?
What if we actually end up learning something from it?

Thot

Post by bob

Organization: T-Online
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 03:50:39 +0100
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
i did rather refer to
the typical Reading-Canon. You know all that.

Everyone you've named is part of the so called reading canon, but as to
whether any or all of them are suitable models for learning the language, I
remain skeptical. Regarding Petronius, since his work is essentially a
burlesque, what treasures would you cull from it as examples of good Latin
usage? Why not include wall graffiti, latrine inscriptions, etc.? Slave
epitaphs, etc.? As for the comedians, their richness as sources for the
flavor of ordinary speech is by now a commonplace.
I don't see the point behind the reinvention of the wheel in this instance.
Oerberg is out there. So is Traupman. Kathleen Coleman and Richard Tarant
are available free on line. While they all may fail to meet your standards
of what is "vernacular", at least they have the distinct advantage of
knowing the language, and they all have loads of teaching experience from
which has emerged a method and a course built around that method, enriched
by years of scholarship and teaching experience. The Colloquia of Erasmus
are available for free on line, as are oral drills from 17th century Oxonian
grammar courses.

For my Part i prefer it, to not demotivate
Pioneers with telling them how useless, how vain
their Ideas are, and that "the Proposal or Invention already exists".

Why not?

Man can complain how difficult it may beto find the "true"
Pronounciation of Latin, man can complain how semi-Professionell the
Outcome will probably become, but i respect the Intention to
venture into Terram novam, and to set up free latin Audio-Material
for Beginners is a Terra nova.

It is even more difficult when it is an exercise in participatory democracy.
When I consider this effort I am reminded of the canal that Stalin attempted
to dig by hand without the guidance of competent engineers, motivated by
proletarian zeal and faith in the innovative, revolutionary spirit. It got
dug, but it wasn't deep enough to handle the draft of the ships.
Bob

[bob]

Organization: Cox Communications
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 00:42:53 -0700
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Is it wise to judge "a priori"?

I haven't judged 'a priori'. Rather I have simply responded to the drivel as
it has dribbled across interretial space.

Is is not more fair to see the outcome of the project and then cast your
vote?

Is it not fair to comment on the toilette of the fair Cloacina?

What if we actually end up learning something from it?

The $64.00 question is really what would you be learning that might not be
better forgotten or at least assigned a place in a mime of Herondas, maybe
the famous shopping outing to the dildo shop? A BAUBWN is not a bauble.

Bob

[Klaus Scholl]

Post by Thot
Is it wise to judge "a priori"?
Is is not more fair to see the outcome of the project and then cast your
vote?
What if we actually end up learning something from it?
Thot

Yes, there are many Qualities, and noone has all of them.
When i meet People, who have obvious defected Qualities,
as Defects in Knowledge, EQ, IQ, Charme, Experience, or else,
i try to inspect where they have their outstanding
Quality, and learn this Quality from the Person.
I am able to learn even from the most stupid Animals.

Greet from Klaus.

[Jack O'Malley]

Post by Klaus Scholl
For my Part i prefer it, to not demotivate
Pioneers with telling them how useless, how vain
their Ideas are, and that "the Proposal or Invention already exists".

The first rule of engineering is "don't reinvent the wheel".
Judging from the posts on the OP's site, these folks are
software engineers who are assembling this stuff. In
spite of themselves the have fallen into the trap of the
"not invented here" syndrome, and will likely learn the
error of their ways.

The problem is that their mistakes will be propagated
amongst other tyros such as you with even with
even greater diminished capacity for discernment.

Jack

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:38:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Are you saying that every person who today pronounces Latin is only
producing garbage?

No, just that it seems that is where, unlike Somkowsky et al., you seem to
have set the bar, that is, in the muck.

Scholarship hasn't yet produced free teaching audio.

Go to the Harvard readings. There are others, but I don't have the
references on hand.

It will, and it will
likely be bad, but will at least then be able to become better. It will also
be fun, and people will be able to learn something from it.

So you wish, so you intend, but fun doesn't equate with sound pedagogy or
with mastery of the material.

You might elaborate. I either don't understand you or you didn't understand
me.

I understood you. However, I'll just ask you this: why would you need an
Ecclesiastical and a Classical version? I don't have to explain you. You
should explain yourself.

I was referring to the syntax, not the phonetics (i.e., I would consider a
program to be valuable if it assisted someone in the learning of grammar).
Regarding phonetics: if you don't have decent recordings, by your own
descriptive text. Unless you are suggesting people just stop thinking about
how Latin sounds entirely, I fail to see where you are going.

Where I am going is elsewhere than you: I don't believe we know how Latin
speech or Latin verse sounded. We have approximations of vocalic and
consonantal values, but we don't have the example of a native speaker to
make that approximation precise, and approximate, even accurate renderings
of vocalic and consonantal values don't constitute speech, which consists of
the production of those sounds in a field of emotion, reasoning,
questioning, exclaiming, with all the variations of pitch, stress, and
intonation that inhere in the set of sounds for a given language and its
speakers. All of that is missing from modern reproductions of ancient
languages and, in the examples I have heard, often are supplied by way of
imitation from the patterns, however disguised, of the speaker's native
language superimposed onto the Latin. I content myself with reading and
understanding Latin texts, and I amuse myself and, on occasion amuse
students, with excursions in to spoken Latin, but I don't delude myself into
thinking I am "speaking" Latin, when all I am really doing is mimicking a
scholarly reconstruction, moving with varying degrees of skill and
subterfuge among the shadows and remnats of what is forever lost.

Bob

[[e-mail]]

Post by bob
I understood you. However, I'll just ask you this: why would you need an
Ecclesiastical and a Classical version? I don't have to explain you. You
should explain yourself.

Because not all students of Caesar wish to pray in Latin.
They might care more for the vocabulary or cultural background of St. Thomas
than that of Cicero. Classicists are unlikely to be interested in
pronouncing the Mass (while you will scarcely find an "Ecclesiasticst" who
isn't). And so on.

pax,
scott

[bob]

Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 01:57:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Pimsleur Latin ?
Because not all students of Caesar wish to pray in Latin.
They might care more for the vocabulary or cultural background of St. Thomas
than that of Cicero. Classicists are unlikely to be interested in
pronouncing the Mass (while you will scarcely find an "Ecclesiasticst" who
isn't). And so on.

You have a gross misconception of what constitutes ecclesiastical Latin,
and, it would seem, you haven't read authors such as Tertullian (whose
vocabulary is enormous, encompassing the full range of Latin prose), Jerome,
Augustine, Cassian, Bede, Lupus of Ferrieres, St. Thomas himself, Aeneas
Silvius, Poggio, Muretus, Leo XIII, Pius XII, John XXIII, or, for that
matter, John Paul II (these being a few examples).

As far as 'pronouncing the mass' goes, I don't see the difficulty. I have
served Mass for priests who when reading the ancient canon used the
reconstructed classical pronunciation and with great facility switched to
the Church pronunciation for Mass, Divine Office, etc. I have also been
server for a wonderful Jesuit who used the classical pronunciation and
celebrated a solitary Mass daily at about 5:00 a.m. in a little Chapel off
the main flow of traffic on a Jesuit campus. That having been said, I still
must ask what might be your point and what would be the evidence you bring
to bear on it.

Anyone who delves into the Latin literature of the Roman Catholic Church
will have to do so firm in the tradition which we call 'classical'. Jerome
is a stylist who may stand comfortably in the company of the classical
greats, as may Augustine, when he so chooses, and Tertullian is as steeped
in the literature of antiquity, - equally proficient in Latin and Greek. He
might be considered as much an exponent of the elocutio novella as Apuleius
himself. Certainly his style and vocabulary are as idiosyncraticalyy
rhetorical, and he has as lively a penchant for new and unusual words.

Here's a sample of 'Mater et Magistra':

Ut facili coniectura prospicitur, utque Ecclesia semper graviterque monuit,
officium egenis et miseris opitulandi catholicos homines cum maxime
commovere iustum est, utpote qui membra sint mystici corporis Christi. «In
hoc cognovimus caritatem Dei ­ inquit Ioannes Apostolus ­ quoniam ille
animam suam pro nobis posuit: et nos debemus pro fratribus animas ponere.
Qui habuerit substantiam huius mundi, et viderit fratrem suum necessitatem
habere, et clauserit viscera sua ab eo, quomodo caritas Dei manet in eo?»
(1Io 3,16-17).

Quocirca libenti animo videmus civitates rationibus instructiores, ad res
gignendas idoneis, suppetias civitatibus a bonis imparatis ferre, ut ipsis
minus arduum sit in melius suas mutare fortunas. [441]

Cum pateat profecto omnibus, alias nationes edulibus bonis ac maxime
frugibus redundare, in aliis vero populares multitudines inopia et fame
laborare, iustitia et humanitas postulant, ut opulentiores illae civitates
subsidio egentibus civitatibus adsint. Quare bona ad hominum vitam
necessaria vel omnino atterere vel profundere, tam adversus iustitiae quam
adversus humanitatis officia facit.

Non sumus plane nescii, sicubi bona abundantiora quam pro civitatis
necessitatibus praesertim ex agris gignantur, inibi posse quibusdam civium
ordinibus enasci detrimenta. Attamen ex hoc nequaquam sequitur, ut quae
nationes bonis affluant, eae ad ferendam egenis ieiunisque opem, ubi
peculiaris quaedam emergat necessitas, non astringantur; quin etiam illud
est diligentissime curandum, ut ortae ex bonorum ubertate incommoditates,
eaedem et imminuantur et aequa ratione a singulis civibus tolerentur
viritim.

Attamen his effectis non continuo e pluribus civitatibus tollentur stabiles
egestatis famisque causae, quae in rudi quadam rerum oeconomicarum ratione
plerumque ponendae sunt. Quibus ut remedium afferatur, omnes, qui dentur,
aditus explorandi sunt, ut partim cives in artibus exercendis, in suisque
obeundis muneribus egregie erudiantur, ut partim in possessionem eant
pecuniarum, quibus iidem res oeconomicas provehant, viis et rationibus
nostrae huic aetati accommodatis.

Bob

[Jack O'Malley]

John Westerlage wrote in message ...

Post by John Westerlage
The following was found at
for those who may have interest.
John
======================
I'm starting a project to create free audio recordings to help
people learn conversational Latin. My goal is to create high
quality audio lessons (in the spirit of Pimsleur) for
conversational Latin that will be completely free for people
(teachers, students, whoever) to download and learn from.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but I have two caveats
for you.

First, the illusion that there is such a thing as "conversational Latin".
Having perused both Traupman's _Conversational Latin_ and some
of Beard's books, I felt constrained to let them lie in their natural
habitat, namely, the shelf of the local Borders. As far as I can tell,
they are either in such high demand, being snapped up by a voracious
Latinity-starved populace and then restocked by overworked bookstore
clerks on the selfsame shelf and uncannily in precisely the same
position as their predecessors, or, they have never been enticed from
their lair at all, forlorn and dejected at the dearth of purchasers. I am
tempted to mark unobtrusively each of them to determine which
theory is correct. My initial hypothesis is that there is little demand
for "conversational Latin". Not to belabor a délicatesse raised in
another thread, but IMHO necroglossia is as much to be spurned
as necrophilia.

Second, I think your price point may be off-putting to savvy consumers.
I have found that you generally get what you pay for. Things are free
for a reason. Bob's comment about blind pedagogues and blind
disciples is on the money. Though I am not a teacher, I have met
a few Latin teachers (my wife teaches French) and I must say that
I would not want my child learning Latin pronunciation from most of
them. There is no greater profanation of the Latin language than
its oral transmission in an American accent. One of these Latin
teachers actually has three classes of Spanish and only one of Latin
(perverted priorities?). His accent in both is execrable. Mercifully, Latin
had the prescience to arrive upon his lips as an already dead language;
Spanish is suffering an agonizingly tortured demise daily in his classes.
Another generation of American high-schoolers with bad Spanish
and no Latin. At taxpayer expense. As I say, you get what you pay for.

Of course, the larger question is why a learner would spend precious
personal or curricular time on "conversational Latin" instead of
acquiring as quickly as possible a reading knowledge of the classics.
This seems like a short-sighted trade-off, intimacy with the minds of
the greats of ancient Rome for a smattering of phrase-book persiflage
that would likely have you taken for a Sardinian rustic in modern Rome.

Besides, there is another (free) resource for Latin pronunciation - YLE's
Nuntii Latini is available for listening as well as reading. I haven't
heard it for several years, and I think I remember a distinct Finnish
accent, but you will at least get some of the flavor of the long vowels
and doubled consonants, a characteristic of the Finnish language
as well. But it is neither "ecclesiastical" nor reconstructed classical.

I am myself a firm believer in the pizza-shop methology of language
acquisition. I am teaching myself Modern Greek and (at a dismally
slow pace) some Arabic. By frequenting a couple of local pizza-shops
whose proprietors are native speakers of those languages, I pick up
a few pointers along with the pizza. My increasing girth is a testimonial
to the intensity of my linguistic efforts. Of course, I am aware that in
the best case I may end up sounding respectively like a Cretan
or a Copt, but at my stage of learning, this is success. I used
this approach years ago when I had a pair of pants altered by
a Yiddish-speaking tailor. Unfortunately my Yiddish has a
Belarusian tinge and is yet very rudimentary, a consequence of my
innate slovenliness and concomitant lack of sartorial exigencies.
(I wonder if he's gone into the pizza business?) But the salient
point is that all this is not free. I do have pay for the pizza.
And the pants.

Should I find a pizza-shop run by an antique ex-Jesuit (some may
need alternative sources of income these days), I'll tell him about
your project. Perhaps your "Suscipiat Dominus sacrificium"
(soo-shee-pee-aht Daw-mee-noos sack-ree-fee-chee-oom) will
qualify you for an SSPX altar boy award of merit. Rome's been
vernacularized, you know. Oto slowo Boze.


Jack