Discussion:
North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
(too old to reply)
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-03 13:33:50 UTC
Permalink
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Composition for The Middle Forms of Schools_. 8th edition (London:
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com

Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.

==================================================

INFINITIVES [p.20]

Rule 4. The simple use of the Infinitive is as the subject or
complement of a finite verb. It thus corresponds to the English verbal
noun in -ing.

e.g. laborare est orare = working is praying

Here 'laborare' is the subject of "est", and 'orare' is the
compliment, just as, in the sentence 'laborare est difficile,'
difficile is the complement. This last sentence we usually translate
"_It_ is difficult to work," but the Latin is "To work is difficult,"
and 'laborare' is a true subject.

All verbs whose meaning is incomplete in itself require a
complement, and this is usually in the Infinitive. We call it the
Prolate Infinitive.

e.g. volo abire = I wish to go away
conor laborare = I try to work
possum vincere = I can conquer
te sino proficisci = I permit you to depart

==================================================

Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]

1. Hoping is easier than believing.
2. Those who wish to command ought to learn to obey.
3. He was thought to be a good general.
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
5. Cease to be idle, and learn to work.
6. We have determined to go to the help of our friends.
7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
8. Did they seem to you to be true friends?
9. The general decided to pitch his camp on a hill.
10. They did not dare to lie.
11. Were you not compelled to leave your home?
12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
__________________________________________________

(1) Lat. 'it is of all soldiers.' (Genitive). So with such phrases as
'it is (the part) of ... ' it is (the nature) of...'

---------------------------------------------------

Vocabulary Exercise 20. [p. 207]

Words which take prolate Infinitive.

be able, possum, posse, potui.
ought, debeo.
be accustomed, soleo, solere, solitus.
dare, audeo, audere, ausus.
wish, am willing, volo, velle, volui.
not to wish, be unwilling, nolo, nolle, nolui.
prefer, malo, malle, malui.
desire, cupio, cupere, -ivi, -itum.
determine, statuo, constituo.
begin, incipio; coepi, -isse.
cease, desino, desinere [for perfect use destiti]
try, conor, I.
teach, doco, -ere, docui, doctum.
learn, disco, discere, didici.
compel, force, cogo.
allow, sino, -ere, sivi, situm.
seem, videor.

Also passives of all verbs of saying, thinking, take prolate Infinitives.

____________

hope, spero, I.
believe, credo, -ere, -didi, ditum.
command, impero, I., dat.
obey, pareo, dat.
country (=native land), patria.
for, on behalf of, pro, abl.
true, verus
pitcha camp, castra pono, -ere, posui, positum; or castra munio.
lie, mentior, -iri, mentitus.
go to the help of, subvenio, dat.

==================================================

Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]

1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
2. Learning is easier than teaching.
3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
5. The barbarians are said to be very brave.
6. They determined to follow the enemy into the city.
7. It is pleasant to help those who can help themselves.
8. All men ought to think it disgraceful to lie.
9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
11. They think it foolish to die for their country.
12. All men ought to praise those who seem to be wise.

-------------------------------------------------

Vocabulary Exercise 21 [p.207]

punish, punio; poenia afficio, -ere, -feci, -fectum.
benefit, prosum, prodesse, profui, dat.
barbarians, barbari.
pleasant, jucundus.
disgraceful, turpis.
foolish, stultus.
wise, sapiens, -entis

==================================================

Hoc conferte cum editione typographica.

DH
Johannes Patruus
2004-04-03 15:41:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
Responsa mittenda sunt die Mercurii.
... vel "feria quarta".

SOME NOTES

1. N.B. - As can be inferred from the example "Laborare est difficile" on
page 20, the infinitive, as a noun, is of NEUTER gender.

2. What N&H calls the "prolate" (or prolative) infinitive, A&G 456 calls
"complementary".
BA (p.6) puts it this way:
"Some Latin verbs have as their object the infinitive of another verb.
Possum (neqeo, desino, volo) haec dicere.
I am able (unable, cease, wish) to say this.
Such verbs are sometimes called modal verbs, and the infinitive used with
them is sometimes called a prolative infinitive because it 'carries on'
(profert) their construction."

3. p.21 footnote - cf. A&G 343c

4. In these exercises, "to be" is always translated.

5. In 20:8, "true" can be emphasised by placing it first in the sentence.

6. In 21:1 (but not elsewhere in these exercises), the Key translates "to
help" with the verb "succurro" (+ dat.) - cf. Vocab 61

Johannes
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
INFINITIVES [p.20]
Rule 4. The simple use of the Infinitive is as the subject or
complement of a finite verb. It thus corresponds to the English verbal
noun in -ing.
e.g. laborare est orare = working is praying
Here 'laborare' is the subject of "est", and 'orare' is the
compliment, just as, in the sentence 'laborare est difficile,'
difficile is the complement. This last sentence we usually translate
"_It_ is difficult to work," but the Latin is "To work is difficult,"
and 'laborare' is a true subject.
All verbs whose meaning is incomplete in itself require a
complement, and this is usually in the Infinitive. We call it the
Prolate Infinitive.
e.g. volo abire = I wish to go away
conor laborare = I try to work
possum vincere = I can conquer
te sino proficisci = I permit you to depart
==================================================
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
1. Hoping is easier than believing.
2. Those who wish to command ought to learn to obey.
3. He was thought to be a good general.
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
5. Cease to be idle, and learn to work.
6. We have determined to go to the help of our friends.
7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
8. Did they seem to you to be true friends?
9. The general decided to pitch his camp on a hill.
10. They did not dare to lie.
11. Were you not compelled to leave your home?
12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
__________________________________________________
(1) Lat. 'it is of all soldiers.' (Genitive). So with such phrases as
'it is (the part) of ... ' it is (the nature) of...'
---------------------------------------------------
Vocabulary Exercise 20. [p. 207]
Words which take prolate Infinitive.
be able, possum, posse, potui.
ought, debeo.
be accustomed, soleo, solere, solitus.
dare, audeo, audere, ausus.
wish, am willing, volo, velle, volui.
not to wish, be unwilling, nolo, nolle, nolui.
prefer, malo, malle, malui.
desire, cupio, cupere, -ivi, -itum.
determine, statuo, constituo.
begin, incipio; coepi, -isse.
cease, desino, desinere [for perfect use destiti]
try, conor, I.
teach, doco, -ere, docui, doctum.
learn, disco, discere, didici.
compel, force, cogo.
allow, sino, -ere, sivi, situm.
seem, videor.
Also passives of all verbs of saying, thinking, take prolate Infinitives.
____________
hope, spero, I.
believe, credo, -ere, -didi, ditum.
command, impero, I., dat.
obey, pareo, dat.
country (=native land), patria.
for, on behalf of, pro, abl.
true, verus
pitcha camp, castra pono, -ere, posui, positum; or castra munio.
lie, mentior, -iri, mentitus.
go to the help of, subvenio, dat.
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
2. Learning is easier than teaching.
3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
5. The barbarians are said to be very brave.
6. They determined to follow the enemy into the city.
7. It is pleasant to help those who can help themselves.
8. All men ought to think it disgraceful to lie.
9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
11. They think it foolish to die for their country.
12. All men ought to praise those who seem to be wise.
-------------------------------------------------
Vocabulary Exercise 21 [p.207]
punish, punio; poenia afficio, -ere, -feci, -fectum.
benefit, prosum, prodesse, profui, dat.
barbarians, barbari.
pleasant, jucundus.
disgraceful, turpis.
foolish, stultus.
wise, sapiens, -entis
==================================================
Hoc conferte cum editione typographica.
DH
Rolleston
2004-04-03 16:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
but the Latin is "To work is difficult,"
I feel sure I must be learning something:
Latin is starting to look just like English.

R.
Rolleston
2004-04-05 18:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
__________________________________________________
(1) Lat. 'it is of all soldiers.' (Genitive). So with such phrases as
'it is (the part) of ... ' it is (the nature) of...'
A few extracts from A&G:

[Allen & Greenough, Sec. 343]

An infinitive or a clause, when used as a noun,
is often limited by a genitive in the predicate:
:

cuiusvis hominis est errare [...]
:

sapientis est pauca loqui, [...]
(Not sapiens (neuter) est, etc.)

Note 1.

This construction is regular with adjectives of the
third declension instead of the neuter nominative [...]

Note 2.

A derivative or possessive adjective may be used for the
genitive in this construction, and must be used for the
genitive of a personal pronoun:

mentiri non est meum (not mei), it is not for me to lie.

humanum (for hominis) est errare,
it is man's nature to err (to err is human).

Thank you for typing in the exercises,

R.
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-07 05:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
1. Hoping is easier than believing.
Sperare est facilius quam credere.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
2. Those who wish to command ought to learn to obey.
Ei qui imperare volunt parere debent.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
3. He was thought to be a good general.
Imperator bonus esse putabatur.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
Est officium omnium militium velle mori pro patria.

[I felt so tempted to use a construction with "opportet". I'm really
not sure about this: "Omnibus militibus opportet velle mori pro
patria." The thing I'm unsure about is the dative "omnibus militis".]
Post by Daniel Hoehr
5. Cease to be idle, and learn to work.
Desine ignavus esse et disce laborare.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
6. We have determined to go to the help of our friends.
Constituimus amicis subvenire.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
Hi homines non solent pugnare.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
8. Did they seem to you to be true friends?
Amicine veri tibi videbamini?
Post by Daniel Hoehr
9. The general decided to pitch his camp on a hill.
Dux constituit castra (sua) in colle ponere.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
10. They did not dare to lie.
Mentiri non ausi sunt.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
11. Were you not compelled to leave your home?
Nonne coactus es domum relinquere?
Post by Daniel Hoehr
12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
Non sinunt nobis in urbe manere.

[Once again, I'm not sure about the dative....]
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
Est pars civium bonorum conari iuvare pauperes.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
2. Learning is easier than teaching.
Discere est facilius quam docere.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
Si milites nolunt iter facere, punientur.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
Cupit prodesse sibi soli.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
5. The barbarians are said to be very brave.
Barbari fortissimi dicuntur esse.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
6. They determined to follow the enemy into the city.
Constituerunt hostes in urbem sequi.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
7. It is pleasant to help those who can help themselves.
Est iucundum illos iuvare qui se iuvare possunt.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
8. All men ought to think it disgraceful to lie.
Omnes homines mentiri turpe putare debent.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
Alii regere alii parere solent.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
Illi qui imperare alios solent discere parere debent.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
11. They think it foolish to die for their country.
Mori pro patria stulum putant.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
12. All men ought to praise those who seem to be wise.
Omnes homines debent laudare illos qui sapientes esse videntur.


DH
Johannes Patruus
2004-04-07 09:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
I've posted the Key answers (with general notes) separately, and only
commented below on additional points needing explanation. (Messy way of
doing things, but then life's a mess!)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
Est officium omnium militium velle mori pro patria.
(i) "militum", as "miles" is not an i-stem.
(ii) If you reconsider footnote 1 (also A&G 343c), you will understand that
it is not necessary to explicitly translate "duty". A somewhat similar
ellipsis occurs in "Their's not to make reply/Their's not to reason
why/Their's but to do and die" in Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light
Brigade":
http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html
Post by Daniel Hoehr
[I felt so tempted to use a construction with "opportet". I'm really
not sure about this: "Omnibus militibus opportet velle mori pro
patria." The thing I'm unsure about is the dative "omnibus militis".]
Accusative, not dative. (N&H Vocab 128; A&G 388c)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
Non sinunt nobis in urbe manere.
[Once again, I'm not sure about the dative....]
Your dictionary will tell you that "sino" is transitive, unlike certain
other verbs which may translate "allow". (See A&G 563c for exx.)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
Est pars civium bonorum conari iuvare pauperes.
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
Si milites nolunt iter facere, punientur.
You could make both verbs present tense or both future (depending on the
intended meaning), but I would tend not to mix the tenses (cf. N&H page 156)

Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-08 04:14:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
M. A. North, M.A., The Rev. A. E. Hillard, D.D., _Latin Prose
Rivingtons, 1913) can be downloaded at http://www.textkit.com
I've posted the Key answers (with general notes) separately, and only
commented below on additional points needing explanation. (Messy way of
doing things, but then life's a mess!)
I actually find your way of posting the key's answers plus general
notes in one one message and some specific notes in a reply to my
answers well-organised. The only mess here seems to be my Latin
grammar....
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
Est officium omnium militium velle mori pro patria.
(i) "militum", as "miles" is not an i-stem.
OK
Post by Johannes Patruus
(ii) If you reconsider footnote 1 (also A&G 343c), you will understand that
it is not necessary to explicitly translate "duty". A somewhat similar
ellipsis occurs in "Their's not to make reply/Their's not to reason
why/Their's but to do and die" in Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light
http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html
In all honesty, I quite didn't really know what to do with the English
phrase "it is of all...." (except for translating it into Latin, of
course). I don't think I'm familiar with it. I wasn't even sure
whether I understood it correctly and the footnote beneath Exercise 20
didn't make any sense to me at all. So my answer was pure guesswork.
And these are the moments when I'm learning English (if not Latin).
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
[I felt so tempted to use a construction with "opportet". I'm really
not sure about this: "Omnibus militibus opportet velle mori pro
patria." The thing I'm unsure about is the dative "omnibus militis".]
Accusative, not dative. (N&H Vocab 128; A&G 388c)
I shall look forward to Exercise 128! Nice list of impersonal verbs....
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
Non sinunt nobis in urbe manere.
[Once again, I'm not sure about the dative....]
Your dictionary will tell you that "sino" is transitive, unlike certain
other verbs which may translate "allow". (See A&G 563c for exx.)
Yes, I need to resist the temptation to use a dative in Latin when I
use a dative in German.
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
Est pars civium bonorum conari iuvare pauperes.
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
I noticed that. Are there any examples of how real Latin writers
handled more than one infinitive in a sentence?
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
Si milites nolunt iter facere, punientur.
You could make both verbs present tense or both future (depending on the
intended meaning), but I would tend not to mix the tenses (cf. N&H page 156)
OR: I could eventually memorise the third person plural of the
indicative present active of 4th conjugation verbs. That would be an
idea as well.....

Thanks for your comments, Johannes.
Post by Johannes Patruus
Johannes
--
Quid est enim libertas? Potestas vivendi, ut velis.
(Cicero, Paradoxa Stoicorum, xxxiv)
Johannes Patruus
2004-04-08 09:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
I've posted the Key answers (with general notes) separately, and only
commented below on additional points needing explanation. (Messy way of
doing things, but then life's a mess!)
I actually find your way of posting the key's answers plus general
notes in one one message and some specific notes in a reply to my
answers well-organised.
Thanks. That's good news because it's logistically easier for me to do it
that way!
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
Est officium omnium militium velle mori pro patria.
(i) "militum", as "miles" is not an i-stem.
OK
Post by Johannes Patruus
(ii) If you reconsider footnote 1 (also A&G 343c), you will understand that
it is not necessary to explicitly translate "duty". A somewhat similar
ellipsis occurs in "Their's not to make reply/Their's not to reason
why/Their's but to do and die" in Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light
http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html
In all honesty, I quite didn't really know what to do with the English
phrase "it is of all...." (except for translating it into Latin, of
course). I don't think I'm familiar with it. I wasn't even sure
whether I understood it correctly and the footnote beneath Exercise 20
didn't make any sense to me at all. So my answer was pure guesswork.
And these are the moments when I'm learning English (if not Latin).
"It is of all...." is not meaningful English but just N&H's literal
representation of the required Latin. English has no unique way of
representing this Latin construction. BA has a whole page of stuff on it
(164f.)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
Est pars civium bonorum conari iuvare pauperes.
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
I noticed that. Are there any examples of how real Latin writers
handled more than one infinitive in a sentence?
No doubt there are. Trouble is, I don't know how to find them!

Johannes
Edward Casey
2004-04-08 13:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
I've posted the Key answers (with general notes) separately, and only
commented below on additional points needing explanation. (Messy way of
doing things, but then life's a mess!)
I actually find your way of posting the key's answers plus general
notes in one one message and some specific notes in a reply to my
answers well-organised.
Thanks. That's good news because it's logistically easier for me to do it
that way!
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Exercise 20 [A] [p. 21]
4. It is the duty of(1) all soldiers to be willing to die for their
country.
Est officium omnium militium velle mori pro patria.
(i) "militum", as "miles" is not an i-stem.
OK
Post by Johannes Patruus
(ii) If you reconsider footnote 1 (also A&G 343c), you will
understand
Post by Johannes Patruus
that
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
it is not necessary to explicitly translate "duty". A somewhat similar
ellipsis occurs in "Their's not to make reply/Their's not to reason
why/Their's but to do and die" in Tennyson's "The Charge of the Light
http://eserver.org/poetry/light-brigade.html
In all honesty, I quite didn't really know what to do with the English
phrase "it is of all...." (except for translating it into Latin, of
course). I don't think I'm familiar with it. I wasn't even sure
whether I understood it correctly and the footnote beneath Exercise 20
didn't make any sense to me at all. So my answer was pure guesswork.
And these are the moments when I'm learning English (if not Latin).
"It is of all...." is not meaningful English but just N&H's literal
representation of the required Latin. English has no unique way of
representing this Latin construction. BA has a whole page of stuff on it
(164f.)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
==================================================
Exercise 21 [A] [p.22]
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
Est pars civium bonorum conari iuvare pauperes.
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
I noticed that. Are there any examples of how real Latin writers
handled more than one infinitive in a sentence?
No doubt there are. Trouble is, I don't know how to find them!
I don't think that juxtaposed infinitives are that rare. Sometimes they
are separated by a comma in the editions, sometimes not. "Est pars civium
bonorum" would probably be interpreted: There is (exists) a part of the
good citizens... I don't know how to find examples either, but "Civium
bonorum (civis boni) est pauperes iuvare conari" sound like one possible
natural word order.
Hoc ipsum, ordo verborum scilicet, vocitabat Sanctus Hieronymus "magnum
mysterium."

Eduardus
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-12 06:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
I actually find your way of posting the key's answers plus general
notes in one one message and some specific notes in a reply to my
answers well-organised.
Thanks. That's good news because it's logistically easier for me to do it
that way!
Also, apologies for replying so late.

<snip>
Post by Johannes Patruus
Post by Daniel Hoehr
In all honesty, I quite didn't really know what to do with the English
phrase "it is of all...." (except for translating it into Latin, of
course). I don't think I'm familiar with it. I wasn't even sure
whether I understood it correctly and the footnote beneath Exercise 20
didn't make any sense to me at all. So my answer was pure guesswork.
And these are the moments when I'm learning English (if not Latin).
"It is of all...." is not meaningful English but just N&H's literal
representation of the required Latin. English has no unique way of
representing this Latin construction. BA has a whole page of stuff on it
(164f.)
Well, the English did look strange to me. I thought maybe it was just
an old-fashioned Victorian expressions. Got it now (I hope).

DH
--
Quid est enim libertas? Potestas vivendi, ut velis.
(Cicero, Paradoxa Stoicorum, xxxiv)
bob
2004-04-08 09:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:14:09 +0200
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
Yes, I need to resist the temptation to use a dative in Latin when I
use a dative in German.
Don't disparage the dative. Switch to a construction with licet and the
dative.

Bob
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-12 06:00:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 06:14:09 +0200
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
Yes, I need to resist the temptation to use a dative in Latin when I
use a dative in German.
Don't disparage the dative. Switch to a construction with licet and the
dative.
You mean along the lines of "quid Iovi licet non bovi licet"? ;-)

(Now, THAT remonded me of my Latin teacher at school.....)
Post by bob
Bob
Daniel
Rolleston
2004-04-10 20:11:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
I noticed that. Are there any examples of how real Latin writers
handled more than one infinitive in a sentence?
Examples with relative frequencies are what you need.
I cannot provide the frequencies, but I have found some
examples. Before I give them, let me make a few small
comments.

The examples have been drawn haphazardly. Since
my search method was biased, the examples may not
be representative.

Some of the attributions may be wrong, because I am
not familiar with all the texts found and because I have
written this in a hurry.

Finally, the "double infinitives" in the extracts appear in
different constructions, not all of which may interest you.

The examples:

[Aquinas, http://tinyurl.com/2chg2]

quod omnes volunt dicere esse elementum aliquid
tale quale descriptum est

[..., http://tinyurl.com/3gx2s]

Observandum est praeterea, Ecclesiam Romanam
non posse errare modo explicato, adhuc dupliciter posse intelligi.

[Rhetorica ad Herennium, http://tinyurl.com/344u8]

Et eo studiosius hoc negotium suscepimus, quod te
non sine causa velle cognoscere rhetoricam intellegebamus:

[Cicero, Brutus, http://tinyurl.com/2xmaf]

Nunc quoniam totum me non naevo aliquo aut crepundiis
sed corpore omni videris velle cognoscere, completar
nonnulla etiam, quae fortasse videantur minus

[Cicero, ad Atticum, http://tinyurl.com/yuxvj]

nunc etsi omnia aut scripta esse a tuis arbitror aut etiam nuntiis
ac rumore perlata, tamen ea scribam brevi quae te puto potissimum
ex meis litteris velle cognoscere.

[Quintilian, Declamationes Maiores, http://tinyurl.com/2bkd3]

fortior sum reus quam absolutus, et tunc tantum
par esse non possum calamitatibus meis, cum me
constare coepit nihil aliud esse quam miserum.

[Pliny, Historia Naturalis, http://tinyurl.com/3xgzc]

namque tu solebas nugas esse aliquid meas putare,
ut obiter emolliam Catullum conterraneum meum

[Petronius, Satyricon, http://tinyurl.com/2g5rv]

Nolite me iocari putare

[Augustine, Sermones, http://tinyurl.com/3f2wt]

noli putare inde te esse bonum, sed fac te inde bonum.

[Justinian's Digest, http://tinyurl.com/29q75]

Ait lex: " quamdiu patronus eam uxorem esse volet".
et velle debet uxorem esse et patronus durare:
si igitur aut patronus esse aut velle desierit,
finita est legis auctoritas.

[Gellius, Noctes Atticae, http://tinyurl.com/22ggd]

"nullum" inquit "verbum est ambiguum, nec quisquam
ambiguum dicit aut sentit, nec aliud dici videri debet,
quam quod se dicere sentit is, qui dicit.

I hope I've not botched the selection.

R.
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-12 06:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
(i) Page 20 footnote 1 again.
(ii) The Key tends to avoid juxtaposing two infinitives.
I noticed that. Are there any examples of how real Latin writers
handled more than one infinitive in a sentence?
Sorry for the late reply and also belated thank you for compiling
these. Holy Week was very busy, I served Latin Mass every day (except
for Good Friday, when it was Missa Praesanctificatorum, but that's
splitting theological hairs), so I didn't get round to reading this
groups and replying. Seems there's some catching up to do.
Post by Rolleston
Examples with relative frequencies are what you need.
I cannot provide the frequencies, but I have found some
examples. Before I give them, let me make a few small
comments.
The examples have been drawn haphazardly. Since
my search method was biased, the examples may not
be representative.
Some of the attributions may be wrong, because I am
not familiar with all the texts found and because I have
written this in a hurry.
Finally, the "double infinitives" in the extracts appear in
different constructions, not all of which may interest you.
Anyway, thanks for putting the examples together.
Post by Rolleston
[Aquinas, http://tinyurl.com/2chg2]
quod omnes volunt dicere esse elementum aliquid
tale quale descriptum est
[..., http://tinyurl.com/3gx2s]
Observandum est praeterea, Ecclesiam Romanam
non posse errare modo explicato, adhuc dupliciter posse intelligi.
[Rhetorica ad Herennium, http://tinyurl.com/344u8]
Et eo studiosius hoc negotium suscepimus, quod te
[Cicero, Brutus, http://tinyurl.com/2xmaf]
Nunc quoniam totum me non naevo aliquo aut crepundiis
sed corpore omni videris velle cognoscere, completar
nonnulla etiam, quae fortasse videantur minus
[Cicero, ad Atticum, http://tinyurl.com/yuxvj]
nunc etsi omnia aut scripta esse a tuis arbitror aut etiam nuntiis
ac rumore perlata, tamen ea scribam brevi quae te puto potissimum
ex meis litteris velle cognoscere.
[Quintilian, Declamationes Maiores, http://tinyurl.com/2bkd3]
fortior sum reus quam absolutus, et tunc tantum
par esse non possum calamitatibus meis, cum me
constare coepit nihil aliud esse quam miserum.
[Pliny, Historia Naturalis, http://tinyurl.com/3xgzc]
namque tu solebas nugas esse aliquid meas putare,
ut obiter emolliam Catullum conterraneum meum
[Petronius, Satyricon, http://tinyurl.com/2g5rv]
Nolite me iocari putare
[Augustine, Sermones, http://tinyurl.com/3f2wt]
noli putare inde te esse bonum, sed fac te inde bonum.
[Justinian's Digest, http://tinyurl.com/29q75]
Ait lex: " quamdiu patronus eam uxorem esse volet".
si igitur aut patronus esse aut velle desierit,
finita est legis auctoritas.
[Gellius, Noctes Atticae, http://tinyurl.com/22ggd]
"nullum" inquit "verbum est ambiguum, nec quisquam
ambiguum dicit aut sentit, nec aliud dici videri debet,
quam quod se dicere sentit is, qui dicit.
I hope I've not botched the selection.
Still, I guess the key author wanted to make the point that in class
sticking two infinitives after one another is a big no-no.....
Probably also to avoid confusion.

Cheers!
Post by Rolleston
R.
DH
Rolleston
2004-04-07 16:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Daniel Hoehr wrote:
[...]

I'm sorry to say that I have not had time to do the exercises this
week. I shall look at your answers a bit later and, if I think I can
make any feeble contribution, I will.

I feel terribly guilty, as if I were at school again and had neglected
my homework. An E for effort (in all two (or perhaps three) senses).

R.
bob
2004-04-07 19:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 17:29:22 +0100
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
I feel terribly guilty, as if I were at school again and had neglected
my homework
Ut dicebamus:

Mea culpa! Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!

Vale.
Rolleston
2004-04-07 19:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 17:29:22 +0100
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
I feel terribly guilty, as if I were at school again and had neglected
my homework
Mea culpa! Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!
Ut dicebam:

My cat ate it.

Cattus maxima pulpa?

R.
bob
2004-04-07 19:56:42 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:50:46 +0100
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
My cat ate it.
Cattus maxima pulpa?
Catte in adiutorium nostrum intende. Eructet et oret.

Vale.
Rolleston
2004-04-08 19:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:50:46 +0100
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
My cat ate it.
Cattus maxima pulpa?
Catte in adiutorium nostrum intende. Eructet et oret.
Under consideration:

hoc edimus et edimus

(Two different verbs.)

Edo ("bring forth") for eructo?

R.
bob
2004-04-09 00:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 20:02:03 +0100
Subject: Re: North & Hillard Exercises 20 [A] & 21 [A]
Edo ("bring forth") for eructo?
That would, I think, be stretching it. Edo, with a long <e>, usually means
to bring forth, with 'animam' to breathe out. It can also mean to beget, to
publish (vide any OCT or Teubner). Also to produce, proclaim, etc. Not quite
an eructation - unless the cat is named Felix. However, we do have the
curious noun (also long <e>) editus, which means voiding or excrement.
Reliquiae igitur catti litterariae tanto augurio fimoso divinahuntur ut
haruspex fortasse eructet.

Bob.
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-08 04:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rolleston
[...]
I'm sorry to say that I have not had time to do the exercises this
week. I shall look at your answers a bit later and, if I think I can
make any feeble contribution, I will.
Thanks, everything will be appreciated -- as usual.
Post by Rolleston
I feel terribly guilty, as if I were at school again and had neglected
my homework.
<grin>

I also get the "back at school" feeling every Tuesday, because that's
when I usually do the N&H exercises. I redo the previous exercises
over the weekend and revise the vocabulary and learn the new words of
the next lot on Mondays if I have the time. I also have band rehearsal
on Tuesday evenings (I play bass in a rock/metal band) and quite often
I leave it till after the rehearsal to type in the answers.

Now, yesterday I still hadn't done exercise 21 when I went to my band
and I got some really funny looks from my bandmates when I said I
couldn't come to the pub after the rehearsal because I hadn't done my
Latin homework...
Post by Rolleston
An E for effort (in all two (or perhaps three) senses).
Over here that would be 6 "für nichtgemachte Hausaufgaben"....

<shudder>
Post by Rolleston
R.
DH
Rolleston
2004-04-10 20:32:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Rolleston
An E for effort (in all two (or perhaps three) senses).
Over here that would be 6 "für nichtgemachte Hausaufgaben"....
With words like that, who needs sentences?

R.
Johannes Patruus
2004-04-07 09:12:42 UTC
Permalink
Latin answers from the Key. Notes at end.

********************************************************************

EXERCISE 20.

1. Hoping is easier than believing.
1. Sperare facilius est quam credere.

2. Those who wish to command ought to learn to obey.
2. Qui imperare volunt ei discere debent parere.

3. He was thought to be a good general.
3. Bonus imperator esse putabatur.

4. It is the duty of all soldiers to be willing to die for their country.
4. Omnium militum est velle pro patria mori.

5. Cease to be idle, and learn to work.
5. Desine ignavus esse et disce laborare.

6. We have determined to go to the help of our friends.
6. Constituimus amicis subvenire.

7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
7. Hi non solent pugnare.

8. Did they seem to you to be true friends?
8. Verine esse amici tibi videbantur?

9. The general decided to pitch his camp on a hill.
9. Dux constituit in colle castra ponere.

10. They did not dare to lie.
10. Mentiri non audebant.

11. Were you not compelled to leave your home?
11. Nonne coacti estis domum relinquere?

12. They do not allow us to remain in the city.
12. Non sinunt nos in urbe manere.

********************************************************************

EXERCISE 21

1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
1. Bonorum civium est conari pauperibus succurrere.

2. Learning is easier than teaching.
2. Discere facilius est quam docere.

3. If soldiers are unwilling to march they are punished.
3. Si milites iter facere nolunt, puniuntur.

4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
4. Sibi soli vult prodesse.

5. The barbarians are said to be very brave.
5. Barbari dicuntur fortissimi esse.

6. They determined to follow the enemy into the city.
6. Constituerunt hostem in urbem sequi.

7. It is pleasant to help those who can help themselves.
7. Jucundum est eos juvare qui se juvare possunt.

8. All men ought to think it disgraceful to lie.
8. Omnes mentiri turpe debent putare.

9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
9. Alii imperare solent, alii parere.

10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
10. Ii qui aliis imperare solent discere debent parere.

11. They think it foolish to die for their country.
11. Stultum putant pro patria mori.

12. All men ought to praise those who seem to be wise.
12. Omnes debent eos qui sapientes esse videntur laudare.

********************************************************************

A NOTE ON 20:2

Note the inversion of the main and relative clauses, concerning which BA 75
says:

"Sometimes the force of the demonstrative 'is qui', and similar
combinations, 'hic qui', etc., is emphasised by placing the relative clause
first, and the demonstrative pronoun with the main sentence afterward.
Qui tum te defendit, is hodie accusat.
He who (the very man who) then defended you is today accusing you.
= Your former advocate is your present accuser.
This construction is always to be used where a strong contrast is dwelt on."

Such inversion is represented in English, for example, by: "What therefore
God hath joined together, let not man put asunder" (Mt. 19:6, KJV = Quod
ergo Deus conjunxit, homo non separet), the undoing of which in some modern
versions (e.g., "Let no man divide what God has put together", NLV) one
might almost, but for fear of the flak, be tempted to call an unmerited
coarsening.


A NOTE ON 21:9

I don't know why the Key has preferred "imperare" to "regere" to translate
"rule".

**************************************************************

Johannes
Daniel Hoehr
2004-04-08 04:14:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Patruus
Latin answers from the Key. Notes at end.
Thanks again for posting the key and the two notes at the end. Just a
Post by Johannes Patruus
EXERCISE 20.
7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
7. Hi non solent pugnare.
I think it is impossible to predict when the key uses "homines" to
translate "men", when it uses a pronoun or just "omnes" or similar (cf
21.8 infra). Or is it just me?
Post by Johannes Patruus
10. They did not dare to lie.
10. Mentiri non audebant.
Once again, I don't know whether or not the perfect would be correct
as well.
Post by Johannes Patruus
EXERCISE 21
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
1. Bonorum civium est conari pauperibus succurrere.
Just for the record: In vocab 4, N&H introduce "iuvo" and "subvenio".
As far as I can see it, "succurro" is introduced in vocab 61.
Post by Johannes Patruus
4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
4. Sibi soli vult prodesse.
Wouldn't "cupio" be a more faithful translation of "desire" than "volo"?
Post by Johannes Patruus
8. All men ought to think it disgraceful to lie.
8. Omnes mentiri turpe debent putare.
cf 20.7 supra
Post by Johannes Patruus
9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
9. Alii imperare solent, alii parere.
Does it matter where you stick "solent" here? I have:

Alii imperare, alii parere solent.
Post by Johannes Patruus
10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
10. Ii qui aliis imperare solent discere debent parere.
Would "illi" instead of "ii" (or "ei") be terribly wrong here? I
understood the English "those" as opposed to "these", so "illi" as
opposed to "ii" ("ei").

DH
Johannes Patruus
2004-04-08 09:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
Latin answers from the Key. Notes at end.
Thanks again for posting the key and the two notes at the end. Just a
Post by Johannes Patruus
EXERCISE 20.
7. These men are not accustomed to fight.
7. Hi non solent pugnare.
I think it is impossible to predict when the key uses "homines" to
translate "men", when it uses a pronoun or just "omnes" or similar (cf
21.8 infra). Or is it just me?
B&I §3, after describing the use of adjectives (e.g., omnes) as nouns in a
manner similar to A&G 288, goes on to add:
"Likewise demonstrative, possessive, ansd proper adjectives, e.g. -
nostri - our (men)
hi - these (men)
mea - my (property)
Romani - the Romans."

Also, consider N&H's footnotes on pp.16, 30 and 59 re "is qui", "sui" and
"tales" respectively.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
10. They did not dare to lie.
10. Mentiri non audebant.
Once again, I don't know whether or not the perfect would be correct
as well.
I don't see how it could be wrong, especially as we are operating in a
contextual vacuum. Here's an example of the perfect from M&F, page 187:
"Sapientes credere ausi sunt hominem cupidum divitiarum saepe errare."
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
EXERCISE 21
1. It is (the part) of good citizens to try to help the poor.
1. Bonorum civium est conari pauperibus succurrere.
Just for the record: In vocab 4, N&H introduce "iuvo" and "subvenio".
As far as I can see it, "succurro" is introduced in vocab 61.
Ha, but you can't say I didn't warn you! -
http://tinyurl.com/2dmok (Note 6)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
4. He desires to benefit himself alone.
4. Sibi soli vult prodesse.
Wouldn't "cupio" be a more faithful translation of "desire" than "volo"?
D'Ooge has the following:
velle - wish (of any kind of volition implying a purpose to obtain)
cupere - desire eagerly (of natural and passionate desire)

His Cicero Orations book has a synonyms section on pp.351 - 361 with its own
index on pp.363-4. Worth printing out. (Very large) download from:
http://www.textkit.com/learn/ID/55/author_id/13/
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
9. Some men are accustomed to rule, others to obey.
9. Alii imperare solent, alii parere.
Alii imperare, alii parere solent.
Nihil obstat, AFAIK (!)
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Johannes Patruus
10. Those who are accustomed to command others ought to learn to obey.
10. Ii qui aliis imperare solent discere debent parere.
Would "illi" instead of "ii" (or "ei") be terribly wrong here? I
understood the English "those" as opposed to "these", so "illi" as
opposed to "ii" ("ei").
B&I 36 has:
" 'Is' (this, that) is not so definite as 'hic' or 'ille', and is
especially used [...] as the antecedent of the relative pronoun, e.g., 'is
qui' - a man who."

However "illi qui" appears to be popular in ecclesiastical Latin:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22illi+qui%22

Johannes
Rolleston
2004-04-10 18:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johannes Patruus
Also, consider N&H's footnotes on pp.16, 30 and 59 re "is qui", "sui" and
"tales" respectively.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
Post by Daniel Hoehr
10. They did not dare to lie.
10. Mentiri non audebant.
Once again, I don't know whether or not the perfect would be correct
as well.
These perfect/imperfect choices are becoming very tiresome
indeed. I would like to think it's possible justify the choices of
the key author as long as he (or she) is not basing his (or her)
decision on an imagined context. It may not be possible, but I
do feel that my understanding of the imperfect has holes in it.

A few selections from A&G:

[A&G, Sec. 470, Note]

The Imperfect is a descriptive tense and denotes
an action conceived as in progress or a state of things
as actually observed. Hence in many verbs it does not
differ in meaning from the Perfect. Thus rex erat and
rex fuit may often be used indifferently; but the former
describes the condition while the latter only states it.

Echoes of the "I will utter my real sentiments" discussion?

[A&G, Sec. 471]

The Imperfect represents a present tense transferred
to past time. Hence all the meanings which the Present
has derived from the continuance of the action belong
also to the Imperfect in reference to past time.
:

The Imperfect sometimes denotes an action as begun
( Inceptive Imperfect), or as attempted or only intended
(Conative Imperfect; cf Sect: 467):
:

The Imperfect with negative words often has the force
of the English auxiliary could or would:

And so on. Note that the present tense can refer to what
is perceived as iterative, habitual and progressive action.
The opening remark of Sec. 471 implies that these aspects
will transfer to past time in the imperfect.

It's possible that A&G define "descriptive" somewhere in
their text. It wouldn't surprise me if they do not. Without
a definition their assertions, if not completely worthless,
are not particularly helpful.

I will finish with a few Google numbers:

ausi sunt (447), audebant (484)
ausus est (1700), audebat (933)

From which I can deduce nothing of great interest.

Comments appreciated.

Thanks,

R.
Rolleston
2004-04-21 19:44:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel Hoehr
INFINITIVES [p.20]
Rule 4. The simple use of the Infinitive is as the subject or
complement of a finite verb. It thus corresponds to the English verbal
noun in -ing.
e.g. laborare est orare = working is praying
All verbs whose meaning is incomplete in itself require a
complement, and this is usually in the Infinitive. We call it the
Prolate Infinitive.
A bit late in the day, but I'm really unsure about this.

I really wouldn't know what a verb "whose meaning is incomplete
in itself" is. And then there's that word "require". Many of the verbs
N&H give (see some below) can be used without a complement.

Do we then say that their meaning is incomplete?

Would they "require" a complement?

Moreover, many of the verbs below can be used with complements
that are not infinitives. For example, they can go with an accusative
noun or a noun clause, and that may be viewed as a complement.
Post by Daniel Hoehr
e.g. volo abire = I wish to go away
conor laborare = I try to work
possum vincere = I can conquer
te sino proficisci = I permit you to depart
One more question:

Are the infinitives in inf + subj. acc. constructions prolative?

Although it's not relevant to this discussion, this may interest you:

Impersonal and Personal Passivization of Latin Infinitive
Constructions, Susanne Schoof: http://tinyurl.com/32p8j

Thanks very much,

R.

Loading...