Discussion:
Need help with Latin song lyrics
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Mark Moore
2004-05-07 20:32:34 UTC
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This song, "Salva Nos", was made for the Japanese animated series, "Noir":

http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/noir/salvanos.htm

I was wondering how accurate both the English translation and the Latin itself is.

Thanks.


Mark
Ed Cryer
2004-05-07 21:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/noir/salvanos.htm
I was wondering how accurate both the English translation and the Latin itself is.
Thanks.
Mark
The translation is fair enough. The Latin is a bit dodgy in a couple of
places, incomprehensible in one. Full of medieval platitudes and clichés.

Ed
Mark Moore
2004-05-08 03:37:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Mark Moore
http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/noir/salvanos.htm
I was wondering how accurate both the English translation and the Latin
itself is.
Post by Mark Moore
Thanks.
Mark
The translation is fair enough. The Latin is a bit dodgy in a couple of
places, incomprehensible in one. Full of medieval platitudes and clichés.
Could you please explain those things?

Also, the third paragraph of the lyrics isn't even in the song. I
don't know where they got that from.

You can listen to the song here:

http://web.mit.edu/mokang/Public/mp3/KAJIURA_YUKI-salva_nos.mp3

What would be the lyrics written in proper Latin?


Mark
Ed Cryer
2004-05-08 12:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
The translation is fair enough. The Latin is a bit dodgy in a couple of
places, incomprehensible in one. Full of medieval platitudes and clichés.
Could you please explain those things?
Also, the third paragraph of the lyrics isn't even in the song. I
don't know where they got that from.
http://web.mit.edu/mokang/Public/mp3/KAJIURA_YUKI-salva_nos.mp3
What would be the lyrics written in proper Latin?
Mark
Hi Mark.

I do like the song. That is cool. But it's like a mixing of two
incommensurable worlds. Modern self-affirmation/medieval self-denial and
abnegation.

Let me explain a bit.
If you want to satirise and send up the Dark Ages of medieval Europe, what
you do is have a line of monks parading through a street, chanting clichés
like "save us, Lord", "give them rest and peace", "hear my prayer, o Lord",
while wearing a hair-shirt and lashing themselves with a whip. This is what
Monty Python did in "The Holy Grail".
It's funny because it's a million miles away from today's concept of what a
man should be. There was a time under the late days of the Roman Empire when
the holiest man in the world lived on the top of a 100-foot pillar which he
built himself on the edge of a desert. Tourists came from all over the
Empire to see him. A biographer got himself hauled up, and records all kinds
of details about his flesh-and-body-denial in order to sanctify his soul and
bring it nearer to God.

The lyrics of this song are cliché statements from a million and one
medieval chants, as common then as today are things like "have a nice day"
or "damn this weather". So I wouldn't make an effort to pin down the grammar
and syntax. That would be utterly absurd in this context.

Ed
Mark Moore
2004-05-09 01:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
The lyrics of this song are cliché statements from a million and one
medieval chants, as common then as today are things like "have a nice day"
or "damn this weather". So I wouldn't make an effort to pin down the grammar
and syntax. That would be utterly absurd in this context.
Thanks for the info, Ed.

I'd still like to know, though, if the words themselves are spelled correctly.

For example, I see both "et" and "a" meaning "the".

I also see "et" meaning "the" and "and".

I also see "et" and "e" meaning "and".


Mark
Ed Cryer
2004-05-09 10:48:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
The lyrics of this song are cliché statements from a million and one
medieval chants, as common then as today are things like "have a nice day"
or "damn this weather". So I wouldn't make an effort to pin down the grammar
and syntax. That would be utterly absurd in this context.
Thanks for the info, Ed.
I'd still like to know, though, if the words themselves are spelled correctly.
For example, I see both "et" and "a" meaning "the".
I also see "et" meaning "the" and "and".
I also see "et" and "e" meaning "and".
Mark
Ok, here goes.

Dominus Lord
Deus God
exaudi hear
nos us
et and
miserere pity

****

Dona Give
nobis to us
pacem peace
et and
salva save
nos us
a from
hostibus enemies

****

Dominus
exaudi
nos
Dominus
miserere
dona
nobis
pacem
Sanctus Holy one
Gloria Glory

****

Dona
nobis
pacem
et
dona
eis to them
requiem rest
inter amongst
ovas ???????
locum place
voca call
me me
cum with
benedictis pleasant words
pie pious
jesu Jesus
domine Lord
dona
eis
requiem
dominus
deus
Sanctus
Gloria

****

I've changed "e" to "et", an obvious error. Also "misrere" to "miserere";
another obvious one.
In the line "voca me cum benedictis", "benedictis" can mean either "blessed
ones" or "blessing words". I've opted for the latter.
The author swops between "Domine" and "Dominus"; vocative case, nominative
case. This is understandable in the light of the Vulgate Bible. St Jerome
sticks with "Deus" as vocative, which entails putting all adjectives in same
case.

The worst line is "inter ovas locum"; very corrupt. I can see why the
translator has given "Amongst this rejoiced place", but that is assuming a
large corruption.
As it stands it would translate as "among you rejoice place".

Hope this is better for you. Ed
John Sullivan
2004-05-09 11:18:44 UTC
Permalink
See below for my message
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
The lyrics of this song are cliché statements from a million and one
medieval chants, as common then as today are things like "have a nice
day"
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
or "damn this weather". So I wouldn't make an effort to pin down the
grammar
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
and syntax. That would be utterly absurd in this context.
Thanks for the info, Ed.
I'd still like to know, though, if the words themselves are spelled
correctly.
Post by Mark Moore
For example, I see both "et" and "a" meaning "the".
I also see "et" meaning "the" and "and".
I also see "et" and "e" meaning "and".
Mark
Ok, here goes.
Dominus Lord
Deus God
exaudi hear
nos us
et and
miserere pity
****
Dona Give
nobis to us
pacem peace
et and
salva save
nos us
a from
hostibus enemies
****
Dominus
exaudi
nos
Dominus
miserere
dona
nobis
pacem
Sanctus Holy one
Gloria Glory
****
Dona
nobis
pacem
et
dona
eis to them
requiem rest
inter amongst
ovas ???????
locum place
voca call
me me
cum with
benedictis pleasant words
pie pious
jesu Jesus
domine Lord
dona
eis
requiem
dominus
deus
Sanctus
Gloria
****
I've changed "e" to "et", an obvious error. Also "misrere" to "miserere";
another obvious one.
In the line "voca me cum benedictis", "benedictis" can mean either "blessed
ones" or "blessing words". I've opted for the latter.
The author swops between "Domine" and "Dominus"; vocative case, nominative
case. This is understandable in the light of the Vulgate Bible. St Jerome
sticks with "Deus" as vocative, which entails putting all adjectives in same
case.
The worst line is "inter ovas locum"; very corrupt.
Look in the "Dies irae": there is a verse which goes
Inter oves locum praesta,
Et ab haedis me sequestra,
Statuens in parte dextra.
which looks like the prototype for this.
Post by Ed Cryer
I can see why the
translator has given "Amongst this rejoiced place", but that is assuming a
large corruption.
As it stands it would translate as "among you rejoice place".
Hope this is better for you. Ed
--
John Sullivan
Please note that any disclaimer on email to me does not
apply, because I have not agreed with it. If your lawyers
disagree, please ask them to study the law of contract.
Ed Cryer
2004-05-09 12:10:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Sullivan
Look in the "Dies irae": there is a verse which goes
Inter oves locum praesta,
Et ab haedis me sequestra,
Statuens in parte dextra.
which looks like the prototype for this.
Nice one, yes. In fact most of these lines come from that, now that I've
looked at it.

See here; http://www.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/diesirae.html

Ed
Mark Moore
2004-05-09 14:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
exaudi hear
nos us
So, "exaudi, Dominus" means "hear, Lord, not "hear us, Lord"?
Post by Ed Cryer
et and
miserere pity
Dominus
exaudi
nos
Dominus
miserere
dona
nobis
pacem
Sanctus Holy one
Gloria Glory
This verse doesn't exist in the song. It's a mystery how it got into
the lyrics.
Post by Ed Cryer
ovas ???????
The word doesn't exist?
Post by Ed Cryer
I've changed "e" to "et", an obvious error. Also "misrere" to "miserere";
another obvious one.
I can't tell if "e" or "et" is sung in the song, but "misrere"
definitely is. The first syllable was lengthened, too, to make it fit.
If they had used the correct word, they wouldn't have had to do that.
Post by Ed Cryer
In the line "voca me cum benedictis", "benedictis" can mean either "blessed
ones" or "blessing words". I've opted for the latter.
That makes more sense. My original guess was that it meant "Count me
among the blessed".
Post by Ed Cryer
The author swops between "Domine" and "Dominus"; vocative case, nominative
case. This is understandable in the light of the Vulgate Bible. St Jerome
sticks with "Deus" as vocative, which entails putting all adjectives in same
case.
Okay, I'm not sure what that means. Since "Deus" is vocative, wouldn't
"Dominus" be vocative, too?

In "the Year of Our Lord", "Domine" is used, I believe.

Since "Lord" is a noun in that case, instead of an adjective, does
that mean that the song's author got them backwards?
Post by Ed Cryer
Hope this is better for you. Ed
It is. Thank you.


Mark
Ed Cryer
2004-05-09 15:05:15 UTC
Permalink
"Mark Moore" <***@naturecoast.net> wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...

The comments you're making now are about translating between languages in
general. You never get that word-for-word resemblance. You have to give and
take. Different languages have their peculiarities and idioms.

I'd refer you to the comment made above by John Sullivan. And take a look at
the "Dies Irae" on the webpage I've given you.
The music of Verdi's "Dies Irae" is famous from the score of lots of horror
films about the supernatural; just like the opening of Carl Orff's "Carmina
Burana". This seems to be the key to understanding this.

I downloaded the music and I've kept it on my desktop. Normally I'd have
erased it by now, but I play it occasionally. I quite like it. I'm also
intrigued by it being the music to a Japanese film with the French title
"Noir"; its having Latin lyrics associated with the good old battle between
good and evil; and it ends with what sounds like a plane crashing.

I think you owe us a bit of a telling of what "Noir" is all about. I'd be
pleased to know.

Ed
Mark Moore
2004-05-10 01:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
The comments you're making now are about translating between languages in
general. You never get that word-for-word resemblance. You have to give and
take. Different languages have their peculiarities and idioms.
I'm sorry about that. I guess I just wasn't thinking. Thank you.
Post by Ed Cryer
I'd refer you to the comment made above by John Sullivan. And take a look at
the "Dies Irae" on the webpage I've given you.
I have. It has too many similar lines to "Salva Nos" to not have been
the inspiration for it. =) I've put all of the information presented
in this thread into a semi-organized message and posted it to a "Noir"
Yahoo! Group.
Post by Ed Cryer
The music of Verdi's "Dies Irae" is famous from the score of lots of horror
films about the supernatural; just like the opening of Carl Orff's "Carmina
Burana". This seems to be the key to understanding this.
Ooh, I've heard "O Fortuna".
Post by Ed Cryer
I downloaded the music and I've kept it on my desktop. Normally I'd have
erased it by now, but I play it occasionally. I quite like it. I'm also
intrigued by it being the music to a Japanese film with the French title
"Noir"; its having Latin lyrics associated with the good old battle between
good and evil; and it ends with what sounds like a plane crashing.
I'll have to listen for that. I hadn't noticed. Usually, I stop it or
rewind it when the electric guitar comes in.
Post by Ed Cryer
I think you owe us a bit of a telling of what "Noir" is all about. I'd be
pleased to know.
It's an anime series - 26 episode long. It's about 2 female assassins,
Mirielle Bouquet and Yumura Kirika. Both have amnesia - Kirika to the
point that she has no idea who she is. She contacts Mirielle and sends
her a sound file with a haunting melody (that Mirelle somehow
recognizes) along with the message: "Come make a pilgrimage for the
past with me".

Mirielle goes to Japan and meets Kirika. Kirika has a pocket watch
that plays the melody. Both girls (Kirika is a teenager; Mirielle is
in her early 20s) are attacked. They manage to kill all of the men.
Kirika is upset that she doesn't feel any sadness over it and doesn't
know why.

After talking for a while at Kirika's house (which isn't really her
house; she woke up there one day with her school uniform hanging on a
stand and a student ID in the pocket), Mirielle takes Kurika back to
France with her.

Mirielle agrees to help Kirika find out about her past, but then
she'll have to kill her (for knowing what Mirielle does for a living).
Kirika looks forward to that moment.

Mirielle then sets up her website (No, I don't get it either) and
names the 2-girl team "Noir".

I've got only the first DVD (first 5 episodes) so far. Mirielle and
Kirika do a few murders for hire, and they slowly realize that someone
is hiring people to lure Noir into traps - without telling them who
Noir really is (the people are always surprised).

At the end of episode 5, Mirielle and Kirika learn that the mysterious
group is called Les Soldats.

"Noir" is a beautifully animated series and shot in widescreen.

Some people have some complaints about the series:

1) A lot of footage is reused. In one review that I read, it said that
the creator may set a record for reused footage in an anime series. So
far, it's not too bad, but we'll see. One person wrote online that
some rules for a "Noir" drinking game would be to take a drink every
time a flashback is shown or "Salva Nos" is played, which is pretty
much the girls' "killing theme" (when it comes on, you know people are
gonna die) and is also used in the next episode previews.

2) Mirielle and Kirika are very cold and methodical in their killing.
Some people think that this is way too unrealistic.

3) Both girls are amnesiacs, making them pretty much blank slates.
That, combined with their coldness, according to some people, make
them unable to carry an entire series.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

I'm going to order the rest of the series soon.


Mark
Ed Cryer
2004-05-10 16:02:00 UTC
Permalink
Wow! Sounds heavy! Psychopathic serial-killers with amnesia, and recurring
heavy-rock driving theme that conjurs up images of Armageddon and the final
battle btween the forces of heaven and hell.

Perhaps I'd better stop listening to that track. I want to get older
gracefully (:-
You know it's a tradition to portray psycho-killers as obsessive
personalities, given to heavy metal music.

You know how movie-makers use Verdi and Orff. In films like "The Omen" or
"The Exorcist" what happens is that a sequence (innocent-looking enough)
starts and the music comes in, so that you know we're building to a horror
moment. It's as if you can see the gates of Hell opening up and all the
forces of evil trooping out for the final conflict, led by Satan himself.
What the music does is lead you into an emotional high; stretches you so
that you feel speeded up, almost running.
I guess Latin will be for ever associated with "Dies Irae", even though a
great deal of the Old Testament imagery was written in Hebrew, and the New
Testament (including the Book of Revelations) was written in Greek.

Ed

Rolleston
2004-05-09 15:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
ovas ???????
The word doesn't exist?
"ovas" does exist, but "oves" ('sheep') is more likely here.

R.
Robert Stonehouse
2004-05-09 15:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
Post by Ed Cryer
The lyrics of this song are cliché statements from a million and one
medieval chants, as common then as today are things like "have a nice day"
or "damn this weather". So I wouldn't make an effort to pin down the grammar
and syntax. That would be utterly absurd in this context.
Thanks for the info, Ed.
I'd still like to know, though, if the words themselves are spelled correctly.
For example, I see both "et" and "a" meaning "the".
I also see "et" meaning "the" and "and".
I also see "et" and "e" meaning "and".
Butting in at a late stage, having just thought to pick up the text
and translation before disconnecting. But I think one or two of these
points have not yet been suggested by anyone else. Taking it as it
Post by Mark Moore
Dominus Deus
(I do think Domine would be better!)
Post by Mark Moore
exaudi nos et misrere
Should be 'miserere'. 'Et' means 'and'.
Post by Mark Moore
exaudi, Dominus
Lord God
Hear us, the wretched
No, 'hear us and have mercy'.
Post by Mark Moore
Hear us, Lord
Dona nobis pacem
et salva nos a hostibus
'A' means 'from'. There is no Latin word for 'the': we have to put one
in where our own language requires it.
Post by Mark Moore
Salva nos, Deus
Grant us peace
And save us from the enemy
Save us, God
Dominus exaudi nos
Dominus misrere
('miserere')
Post by Mark Moore
Dona nobis pacem
Sanctus, Gloria
I suggest this is an abbreviation: Sanctus for the Trisagion, 'Holy,
holy, holy, Lord God of hosts' and Gloria for the Doxology, 'Glory be
to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost'. If you want to
sing this, you may have to expand it a lot.
Post by Mark Moore
Lord hear us
Lord have mercy
Grant us peace
Holy, Glory
dona nobis pacem
e dona eis requiem
'E' should be 'et'. Not sense otherwise. Meaning 'and' ('e' wouldbe
'out of', a form of 'ex').
Post by Mark Moore
inter ovas locum
I suspect this should mean '(grant them) a place among thy sheep',
parallel with 'requiem', in which case the word should be 'oves'.
Post by Mark Moore
voca me cum benedictis
pie jesu domine, dona eis requiem
dominus deus, Sanctus, Gloria
Grant us peace
And give them rest
Amongst this rejoiced place
Call me with the blessed
Merciful Jesus, give them rest
Lord God, Holy, Glory
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted.
Mark Moore
2004-05-10 01:51:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Stonehouse
Butting in at a late stage, having just thought to pick up the text
and translation before disconnecting. But I think one or two of these
points have not yet been suggested by anyone else. Taking it as it
Thank you for the information, Robert.


Mark
Klaus Scholl
2004-05-08 00:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Moore
http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/noir/salvanos.htm
I was wondering how accurate both the English translation and the Latin itself is.
Thanks.
Mark
Dominus => Domine.
misrere => miserere
What does 'Holy, Glory' mean?
e => et
<e dona eis requiem> whom?
<amongst this rejoiced place> whats shall this mean?
amongst this rejoiced place => in hoc Loco felice
<call me with the blessed> what does this mean?

Greet from Klaus.
Mark Moore
2004-05-08 15:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Klaus Scholl
Dominus => Domine.
Thanks.
Post by Klaus Scholl
misrere => miserere
Thanks.
Post by Klaus Scholl
What does 'Holy, Glory' mean?
Probably just random praise.
Post by Klaus Scholl
e => et
Thanks.
Post by Klaus Scholl
<e dona eis requiem> whom?
I don't know.
Post by Klaus Scholl
<amongst this rejoiced place> whats shall this mean?
I don't know.
Post by Klaus Scholl
amongst this rejoiced place => in hoc Loco felice
Thanks.
Post by Klaus Scholl
<call me with the blessed> what does this mean?
I'm not sure. Maybe it's meant to be "Count me among the blessed"?

You can listen to the song here:

http://web.mit.edu/mokang/Public/mp3/KAJIURA_YUKI-salva_nos.mp3

Maybe this will clear things up?


Mark
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