Discussion:
ho ho hic haec hoc
(too old to reply)
Ignotus
2005-12-18 22:35:01 UTC
Permalink
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non amat'
and such.

And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving the
onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec intellegit,
consul videt'.

But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even greater
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)

The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul has it
right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my imagination.

I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of 'hic' -because
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only accusative form
of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the elliptical
objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?

'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .

And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one is
feminine and the other is masculine.

'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??

O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
Ed Cryer
2005-12-18 23:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non
amat' and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving
the onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec
intellegit, consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even greater
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul has
it right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my imagination.
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of 'hic' -because
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only accusative
form of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the
elliptical objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one is
feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
It's paragraph 2 of one of Cicero's most famous speeches; Against Catiline
I.
You're quite right about "haec" being neuter plural. It refers back to
things mentioned in para 1. And the "haec" can be assumed after "videt" as
well.

The thing about "videt" being translated as "right in front of his eyes" is
explained later by Cicero. He's got eyes all over Rome on the look out for
Catiline and his band of brothers plotting to overthrow the state.

Ed
Ignotus
2005-12-19 00:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Ed, that's a relief -and very interesting.

Now I must share with you a quote I just heard on the radio; not pertinent to the subject matter; just brilliant.

Alain de Botton, speaking about why he likes the music of Bach, said that, whereas most music-especially modern music-is about the love of another person, Bach's music is about the love of God. Since he didn't believe in God, this might seem strange, but listening to Bach told him what it felt like to believe in God.

Unforgettable, eh?
Post by Ed Cryer
It's paragraph 2 of one of Cicero's most famous speeches; Against Catiline
I.
You're quite right about "haec" being neuter plural. It refers back to
things mentioned in para 1. And the "haec" can be assumed after "videt" as
well.
The thing about "videt" being translated as "right in front of his eyes" is
explained later by Cicero. He's got eyes all over Rome on the look out for
Catiline and his band of brothers plotting to overthrow the state.
Ed
Grant Hicks
2005-12-19 00:11:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non
amat' and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving
the onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec
intellegit, consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even greater
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul has
it right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my imagination.
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of 'hic' -because
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only accusative
form of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the
elliptical objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one is
feminine and the other is masculine.
Latin often uses neuter adjectives as substantives meaning "things [of such
a kind]". "Multa" = many things; "mala" = evils (bad things), etc. See for
example the Vulgate translation of the Magnificat, where Maria says
"esurientes implevit bonis" -- He hath filled the hungry with good things.
In cases like this, there is no noun for the adjective to agree with.
Post by Ignotus
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
This should either be "O mule!" (vocative) or "O mulum!" (accusative of
exclamation). Sorry, I get this way sometimes.

- Grant
B. T. Raven
2005-12-19 00:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non amat'
and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving the
onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec intellegit,
consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even greater
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul has it
right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my imagination.
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of
'hic' -because
Post by Ignotus
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only accusative form
of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the elliptical
objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one is
feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
haec (n. pl.) is pretty much synonymous with hae res. Illa are those
things, ista are those things near you (or of yours). What course are you
using? 'mulus silvam non amat' seems like a very stupid sentence to start
the study of Latin with. Is it a butchered paraphrase from Apuleius? Why
not Silva mulum non amat, Amor salivam non armat, Milvi mulos non docent,
Aedes armeniacae non incolunt? Why not things people really say like
'Quanti constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?'

If these pettygogs are going play a version of "Stop making sense" then
why don't they set up something useful like:

Hic mulus ridiculus sum (confiteor)
Huius muli ridiculi memini (aut forsan misereor)
Huic mulo ridiculo do alapam
Hunc mulum ridiculum accuso irrumationis
Ab hoc mulo ridiculo surripio caudam (aufero petasum, peto horam diei).
O mule, quantopere aveam anticam ungulam dextram tuam deosculari!

Now the teacher turns to the right linebacker on the football team:

Repete quaeso post me
Haec puella pulcherrima sum
etc.

School kids would actually remember things like this. Just kidding about
irrumatio. This just has no place in wholesome family fare.

Eduardus
Ed Cryer
2005-12-19 11:25:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non
amat'
Post by Ignotus
and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving
the
Post by Ignotus
onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec
intellegit,
Post by Ignotus
consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even
greater
Post by Ignotus
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul
has it
Post by Ignotus
right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my imagination.
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of
'hic' -because
Post by Ignotus
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only accusative
form
Post by Ignotus
of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the
elliptical
Post by Ignotus
objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one
is
Post by Ignotus
feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
haec (n. pl.) is pretty much synonymous with hae res. Illa are those
things, ista are those things near you (or of yours). What course are you
using? 'mulus silvam non amat' seems like a very stupid sentence to start
the study of Latin with. Is it a butchered paraphrase from Apuleius? Why
not Silva mulum non amat, Amor salivam non armat, Milvi mulos non docent,
Aedes armeniacae non incolunt? Why not things people really say like
'Quanti constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?'
If these pettygogs are going play a version of "Stop making sense" then
Hic mulus ridiculus sum (confiteor)
Huius muli ridiculi memini (aut forsan misereor)
Huic mulo ridiculo do alapam
Hunc mulum ridiculum accuso irrumationis
Ab hoc mulo ridiculo surripio caudam (aufero petasum, peto horam diei).
O mule, quantopere aveam anticam ungulam dextram tuam deosculari!
Repete quaeso post me
Haec puella pulcherrima sum
etc.
School kids would actually remember things like this. Just kidding about
irrumatio. This just has no place in wholesome family fare.
Eduardus
I was listening to a comedian on the radio talking about when he learned
Latin at school. He kept talking about "a vase of flowers".
Now, when I learned Latin it was worse than giving kids guns.
Non sine gloria militavi. I served in the army with distinction.
Exercitum suum trans Rhenum traiecit. He threw his army across the Rhine.
Usque ad solis occasum ferociter pugnatum est. The fighting when on right up
to sundown.
Non vulnus super vulnus sed multiplex clades. Not just one wound on top of
another, but a manifold disaster.

Ed
B. T. Raven
2005-12-19 13:56:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam non
amat'
Post by Ignotus
and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard giving
the
Post by Ignotus
onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec
intellegit,
Post by Ignotus
consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L plates
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even
greater
Post by Ignotus
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul
has it
Post by Ignotus
right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my
imagination.
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of
'hic' -because
Post by Ignotus
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only
accusative
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
form
Post by Ignotus
of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the
elliptical
Post by Ignotus
objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one
is
Post by Ignotus
feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
haec (n. pl.) is pretty much synonymous with hae res. Illa are those
things, ista are those things near you (or of yours). What course are you
using? 'mulus silvam non amat' seems like a very stupid sentence to start
the study of Latin with. Is it a butchered paraphrase from Apuleius? Why
not Silva mulum non amat, Amor salivam non armat, Milvi mulos non docent,
Aedes armeniacae non incolunt? Why not things people really say like
'Quanti constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?'
If these pettygogs are going play a version of "Stop making sense" then
Hic mulus ridiculus sum (confiteor)
Huius muli ridiculi memini (aut forsan misereor)
Huic mulo ridiculo do alapam
Hunc mulum ridiculum accuso irrumationis
Ab hoc mulo ridiculo surripio caudam (aufero petasum, peto horam diei).
O mule, quantopere aveam anticam ungulam dextram tuam deosculari!
Repete quaeso post me
Haec puella pulcherrima sum
etc.
School kids would actually remember things like this. Just kidding about
irrumatio. This just has no place in wholesome family fare.
Eduardus
I was listening to a comedian on the radio talking about when he learned
Latin at school. He kept talking about "a vase of flowers".
Now, when I learned Latin it was worse than giving kids guns.
Non sine gloria militavi. I served in the army with distinction.
Exercitum suum trans Rhenum traiecit. He threw his army across the Rhine.
Usque ad solis occasum ferociter pugnatum est. The fighting when on right up
to sundown.
Non vulnus super vulnus sed multiplex clades. Not just one wound on top of
another, but a manifold disaster.
Ed
But the problem with Latin education is that it has been in decline since
Waterloo. Long before we were born the philological (analytical as opposed
to the living Berlitz school) method had already leaked into the teaching
of the vernaculars. Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est sur
la table." Once the philologists lay their unclean talons on a language,
it's time for a bonfire. Of couse they will not be able to kill off French
or English; city life will do that.

Eduardus
Ed Cryer
2005-12-19 18:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus silvam
non
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
amat'
Post by Ignotus
and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard
giving
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
the
Post by Ignotus
onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec
intellegit,
Post by Ignotus
consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L
plates
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would have even
greater
Post by Ignotus
difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the consul
has it
Post by Ignotus
right in front of his eyes', which is really stretching my
imagination.
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec' was a variant of
'hic' -because
Post by Ignotus
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only
accusative
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
form
Post by Ignotus
of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral, so what are the
elliptical
Post by Ignotus
objects : 'these things' that the senate understands?
'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise 'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because
one
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
is
Post by Ignotus
feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and dark
shadows.
haec (n. pl.) is pretty much synonymous with hae res. Illa are those
things, ista are those things near you (or of yours). What course are
you
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
using? 'mulus silvam non amat' seems like a very stupid sentence to
start
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
the study of Latin with. Is it a butchered paraphrase from Apuleius?
Why
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
not Silva mulum non amat, Amor salivam non armat, Milvi mulos non
docent,
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Aedes armeniacae non incolunt? Why not things people really say like
'Quanti constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?'
If these pettygogs are going play a version of "Stop making sense"
then
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Hic mulus ridiculus sum (confiteor)
Huius muli ridiculi memini (aut forsan misereor)
Huic mulo ridiculo do alapam
Hunc mulum ridiculum accuso irrumationis
Ab hoc mulo ridiculo surripio caudam (aufero petasum, peto horam
diei).
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
O mule, quantopere aveam anticam ungulam dextram tuam deosculari!
Repete quaeso post me
Haec puella pulcherrima sum
etc.
School kids would actually remember things like this. Just kidding
about
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
irrumatio. This just has no place in wholesome family fare.
Eduardus
I was listening to a comedian on the radio talking about when he learned
Latin at school. He kept talking about "a vase of flowers".
Now, when I learned Latin it was worse than giving kids guns.
Non sine gloria militavi. I served in the army with distinction.
Exercitum suum trans Rhenum traiecit. He threw his army across the
Rhine.
Post by Ed Cryer
Usque ad solis occasum ferociter pugnatum est. The fighting when on
right up
Post by Ed Cryer
to sundown.
Non vulnus super vulnus sed multiplex clades. Not just one wound on top
of
Post by Ed Cryer
another, but a manifold disaster.
Ed
But the problem with Latin education is that it has been in decline since
Waterloo. Long before we were born the philological (analytical as opposed
to the living Berlitz school) method had already leaked into the teaching
of the vernaculars. Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est sur
la table." Once the philologists lay their unclean talons on a language,
it's time for a bonfire. Of couse they will not be able to kill off French
or English; city life will do that.
Eduardus
In the UK Latin was taught to all upper school lads right through the 19th
century, and well past the mid point of the last one. Who was it who said
that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton? Well, I
have a strong feeling that as Wellington sat astride his horse under that
famous tree and watched the French forces deploy down into the valley, he
formed his plans in Latin.

Hey, Edward, I think I've come up with a usage for Latin in the modern
world. All the bad things in the media should have to be reported in Latin.
Things like Nine-eleven, terrorist atrocities, Iraq, teenagers raping
pensioners. And all the good things can be written up in the local lingo.

Hhhmm. On second thoughts, maybe not. That would be a bit like Mary
Whitehouse saying "You must not watch this TV program". That tended to
quadruple the audience. So learning Latin would become synonymous with a
return to a pre-Christian moral outlook.

Ed
John Briggs
2005-12-19 21:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
Post by Ignotus
I'm back at Unit 1 , feeling really comfortable with 'mulus
silvam non amat' and such.
And this time I've got the CD so I can strut around the back yard
giving the onions a dramatic rendering of 'O tempora, o mores!
Senatus haec intellegit, consul videt'.
But, when it comes to translating the last part, I can feel the L
plates hanging heavily around my neck. ( I think George W would
have even greater difficulty -he thinks 'mores' means 'extras'.)
The book translation is 'The senate knows what's going on, the
consul has it right in front of his eyes', which is really
stretching my imagination. I had enough trouble deciding that 'haec'
was a variant of
'hic' -because
Post by Ignotus
there was no separate entry in the dictionary -but the only
accusative form of the pronoun seems to be pleural and neutral,
so what are the elliptical objects : 'these things' that the
senate understands? 'res' won't do; that's feminine; likewise
'condiciones' .
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents
because one is feminine and the other is masculine.
'what's going on' ? 'what's going on' ??
O mulus! I too have wandered into a wood with twisting paths and
dark shadows.
haec (n. pl.) is pretty much synonymous with hae res. Illa are
those things, ista are those things near you (or of yours). What
course are you using? 'mulus silvam non amat' seems like a very
stupid sentence to start the study of Latin with. Is it a
butchered paraphrase from Apuleius? Why not Silva mulum non amat,
Amor salivam non armat, Milvi mulos non docent, Aedes armeniacae
non incolunt? Why not things people really say like 'Quanti
constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?' If these pettygogs are going
play a version of "Stop making sense"
Hic mulus ridiculus sum (confiteor)
Huius muli ridiculi memini (aut forsan misereor)
Huic mulo ridiculo do alapam
Hunc mulum ridiculum accuso irrumationis
Ab hoc mulo ridiculo surripio caudam (aufero petasum, peto horam
diei). O mule, quantopere aveam anticam ungulam dextram tuam
deosculari! Now the teacher turns to the right linebacker on the
Repete quaeso post me
Haec puella pulcherrima sum
etc.
School kids would actually remember things like this. Just kidding
about irrumatio. This just has no place in wholesome family fare.
Eduardus
I was listening to a comedian on the radio talking about when he
learned Latin at school. He kept talking about "a vase of flowers".
Now, when I learned Latin it was worse than giving kids guns.
Non sine gloria militavi. I served in the army with distinction.
Exercitum suum trans Rhenum traiecit. He threw his army across the
Rhine. Usque ad solis occasum ferociter pugnatum est. The fighting
when on right up to sundown.
Non vulnus super vulnus sed multiplex clades. Not just one wound on
top of another, but a manifold disaster.
But the problem with Latin education is that it has been in decline
since Waterloo. Long before we were born the philological
(analytical as opposed to the living Berlitz school) method had
already leaked into the teaching of the vernaculars. Miss Prim,
whose fate was to work itself out in domestic service, was taught to
say, and then to think "Ma chatte est sur la table." Once the
philologists lay their unclean talons on a language, it's time for a
bonfire. Of couse they will not be able to kill off French or
English; city life will do that.
In the UK Latin was taught to all upper school lads right through the
19th century, and well past the mid point of the last one. Who was it
who said that the battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of
Eton? Well, I have a strong feeling that as Wellington sat astride
his horse under that famous tree and watched the French forces deploy
down into the valley, he formed his plans in Latin.
It certainly wasn't Wellington who said it - when he was at Eton it didn't
have any playing fields :-)
--
John Briggs
bob
2005-12-21 21:44:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:04:53 -0000
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Hey, Edward, I think I've come up with a usage for Latin in the modern
world.
Through the early 60's in some R.C. religious orders and/or houses which
enforced silence. it was typically broken by speaking Latin.

When I was a youngster I was punished by having to translate the Preamble to
the U.S. Constitution into Latin.

Bob
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-19 21:38:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
But the problem with Latin education is that it has been in decline since
Waterloo. Long before we were born the philological (analytical as opposed
to the living Berlitz school) method had already leaked into the teaching
of the vernaculars. Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est sur
la table." Once the philologists lay their unclean talons on a language,
it's time for a bonfire. Of couse they will not be able to kill off French
or English; city life will do that.
I'm curious about what you understand 'philology' to be, given its
widely varying usages. Anyway, what would you tell somebody who asked
is the point or advantage of learning Latin?

Neeraj Mathur
B. T. Raven
2005-12-20 01:12:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Post by B. T. Raven
But the problem with Latin education is that it has been in decline since
Waterloo. Long before we were born the philological (analytical as opposed
to the living Berlitz school) method had already leaked into the teaching
of the vernaculars. Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est sur
la table." Once the philologists lay their unclean talons on a language,
it's time for a bonfire. Of couse they will not be able to kill off French
or English; city life will do that.
I'm curious about what you understand 'philology' to be, given its
widely varying usages. Anyway, what would you tell somebody who asked
is the point or advantage of learning Latin?
Neeraj Mathur
i. As I used the term in the above benevolent rant, I see the philologist
as one who considers language as an essentially spatial artifact. He
analyzes it, systematizes, constructs grand theories that are thought to
apply to all peoples in all times. To adopt the Nietzschean method of
argumentum ad hominem, he is the sort of person who feels himself a
mathématicien manqué, who will not rest until he brings the study of
language under the well-tempered aegis of the physical sciences, next to
crystallography and thermodynamics. Such people are Bloomfield, Chomsky,
maybe my learned interlocutor. (Think philately, philosophy, even
phimosis, as opposed to philharmonia, philanthropy, phaticism).

On the other hand there are the people who have thought more deeply about
language, for whom it is all about time, tradition, about the seriousness
of calling out (edüco) our children from the jungles of savagery into
humanity. As it applies to Latin specifically (the topic of this ng) it is
about the absolute necessity of viva voce (even bookless) Latinity in
order to reconnect with the quiet breathing of our sister societies of
sainted memory, now passed on, Rome and Greece, in that order. Such people
are Rosenstock-Huessy, Marcel Jousse, the late Walter Ong. Among living
Latinists, Eichenseer, Miraglia, Foster, among not enough others.

ii. I would tell her to see:

http://cottageschool.net/articles/sayers/sayers1.html

also .... 2, 3, 4, 5.

or

Rosenstock-Huessy's _Magna Charta Latina_.

Tata
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-20 02:32:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
I'm curious about what you understand 'philology' to be, given its
widely varying usages. Anyway, what would you tell somebody who asked
is the point or advantage of learning Latin?
i. As I used the term in the above benevolent rant, I see the philologist
as one who considers language as an essentially spatial artifact. He
analyzes it, systematizes, constructs grand theories that are thought to
apply to all peoples in all times. To adopt the Nietzschean method of
argumentum ad hominem, he is the sort of person who feels himself a
mathématicien manqué, who will not rest until he brings the study of
language under the well-tempered aegis of the physical sciences, next to
crystallography and thermodynamics. Such people are Bloomfield, Chomsky,
maybe my learned interlocutor. (Think philately, philosophy, even
phimosis, as opposed to philharmonia, philanthropy, phaticism).
On the other hand there are the people who have thought more deeply about
language, for whom it is all about time, tradition, about the seriousness
of calling out (edüco) our children from the jungles of savagery into
humanity. As it applies to Latin specifically (the topic of this ng) it is
about the absolute necessity of viva voce (even bookless) Latinity in
order to reconnect with the quiet breathing of our sister societies of
sainted memory, now passed on, Rome and Greece, in that order. Such people
are Rosenstock-Huessy, Marcel Jousse, the late Walter Ong. Among living
Latinists, Eichenseer, Miraglia, Foster, among not enough others.
http://cottageschool.net/articles/sayers/sayers1.html
also .... 2, 3, 4, 5.
Thank you for your frank answers. I read through the Sayers article,
all five pages; very interesting indeed. Are there any points on which
you personally would disagree with her?

To other members of the group, are Eduardus' replies here and/or
Dorothy Sayers' article generally conformant to your own views? I'd be
interested to hear from dissenters, in particular.

Thanks again for your indulging me; I feel I'll be better able to
understand where you're coming from thanks to this.

Neeraj Mathur
B. T. Raven
2005-12-20 03:42:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Neeraj Mathur
I'm curious about what you understand 'philology' to be, given its
widely varying usages. Anyway, what would you tell somebody who asked
is the point or advantage of learning Latin?
i. As I used the term in the above benevolent rant, I see the
philologist
Post by B. T. Raven
as one who considers language as an essentially spatial artifact. He
analyzes it, systematizes, constructs grand theories that are thought to
apply to all peoples in all times. To adopt the Nietzschean method of
argumentum ad hominem, he is the sort of person who feels himself a
mathématicien manqué, who will not rest until he brings the study of
language under the well-tempered aegis of the physical sciences, next to
crystallography and thermodynamics. Such people are Bloomfield, Chomsky,
maybe my learned interlocutor. (Think philately, philosophy, even
phimosis, as opposed to philharmonia, philanthropy, phaticism).
On the other hand there are the people who have thought more deeply about
language, for whom it is all about time, tradition, about the
seriousness
Post by B. T. Raven
of calling out (edüco) our children from the jungles of savagery into
humanity. As it applies to Latin specifically (the topic of this ng) it is
about the absolute necessity of viva voce (even bookless) Latinity in
order to reconnect with the quiet breathing of our sister societies of
sainted memory, now passed on, Rome and Greece, in that order. Such people
are Rosenstock-Huessy, Marcel Jousse, the late Walter Ong. Among living
Latinists, Eichenseer, Miraglia, Foster, among not enough others.
http://cottageschool.net/articles/sayers/sayers1.html
also .... 2, 3, 4, 5.
"
Thank you for your frank answers. I read through the Sayers article,
all five pages; very interesting indeed. Are there any points on which
you personally would disagree with her?

To other members of the group, are Eduardus' replies here and/or
Dorothy Sayers' article generally conformant to your own views? I'd be
interested to hear from dissenters, in particular.

Thanks again for your indulging me; I feel I'll be better able to
understand where you're coming from thanks to this.

Neeraj Mathur
"

Why no > (&gt) fill prefixes?

I always disagree with persons personally. ;-)
I disagree with many of the details but the main thrust of her argument is
sound. For instance there is no reason why the restored pronunciation
can't be sung. For an Italian Russian is unsingable, for a Chinese,
Hottentot. But it's a fact of life that singing is as human and universal
as sin itself.
For an in depth investigation of some of these matters see Rosenstock's
Magna Charta (Argo Press in Vermont or New Hampshire, somewhere near
Dartmouth anyway). This was put together as an introductory text for
divinity students. If you can get permission from your advisor have a look
at his _Speech and Reality_ (same publisher). In general, the powers that
be in academe (American at least) don't want their students to have
anything to do with this man. They are rightly afraid of him. Their
students may see them in a new light after encountering E. R-H.

Eduardus
bob
2005-12-21 22:03:07 UTC
Permalink
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:12:25 GMT
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
Post by B. T. Raven
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est
sur
Post by B. T. Raven
la table."
An adventuresome, if unorthodox, place for it. What would Dr. Ruth say?

Bob
B. T. Raven
2005-12-22 00:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:12:25 GMT
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Miss Prim, whose fate was to work itself out in
Post by B. T. Raven
domestic service, was taught to say, and then to think "Ma chatte est
sur
Post by B. T. Raven
la table."
An adventuresome, if unorthodox, place for it. What would Dr. Ruth say?
Bob
That reminds me of an old one:

Why don't Polish cheerleaders do the splits?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

..

..

..

..

Because they stick to the floor.
.
.
.
.

Ouch. That calls for a change of ethnicity:

Cur instigatrices Hibernae clamorum "Eugepae" illa palaestrica non
perfunguntur qua, cruribus ex adverso porrectis, inguen in solum
intruditur?

Quod ad solum adhaerent.

Robert Stonehouse
2005-12-19 22:44:13 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:29:43 GMT, "B. T. Raven"
...
Post by B. T. Raven
'Quanti constat ille caniculus pone fenestram?'
...
Which, if you want it in French, is 'Combien coute ce chien
dans la vitrine?' (I omit accents.)
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
Ignotus
2005-12-19 23:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Egad! I didn't dream that 'haec' would have such amazing connotations. ( I
even know why Wellington got his boots muddy and had to invent new ones.)
It must have been one of you blokes who said
'sed haec omitto; ad illa quae me magis moverunt respondeo'
Ed Cryer
2005-12-19 23:29:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Egad! I didn't dream that 'haec' would have such amazing connotations. ( I
even know why Wellington got his boots muddy and had to invent new ones.)
It must have been one of you blokes who said
'sed haec omitto; ad illa quae me magis moverunt respondeo'
Ignotus (Ignote??), you're hiding your lights under a bushel. That's a
pretty good Latin response. What are you doing posing as the Aussie
beginner? Perhaps you should be teaching us!

Ed
Ignotus
2005-12-20 00:50:16 UTC
Permalink
"Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.UK> wrote in > Ignotus (Ignote??), you're
hiding your lights under a bushel. That's a
Post by Ed Cryer
pretty good Latin response. What are you doing posing as the Aussie
beginner? Perhaps you should be teaching us!
I pinched it holus-bolus from my Collins Dictionary & Grammar, Ed. Just
lucky it was so apposite.
While I've got you, I must ask you about another of the classical quotations
in Lesson 1:
Seneca evidently said 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna', which the book
translates as 'Fortune batters and torments us.'

This has me puzzling about word order in Latin ; I suspect I'll still be
puzzling about it when I fall off the perch, but it seems important to grasp
it as best I can, even this early .

I thought Seneca had switched from 'Fortuna nos verberat et lacerat' (the
everyday word order?), to 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna' so as to
emphasize the suffering. But, if that were so, the English translation of
the intended meaning would have to be more like 'Lashed and tormented by
fortune are we.'

Am I falling into the trap of thinking in English? Is it the case that, in
Latin, the part that the speaker wants to emphasize goes at the end of the
sentence, so Seneca is pointing out that we are mere pawns of fate: it's
blind chance that is plaguing us (or, as Charlie Drake used to say, 'You
can't help bad luck.'!) ?



P.S. What's with the innuendo about 'pre-Christian morals'? Aren't you a
Socrates man? (not to mention Aristotle.)



P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-20 02:09:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Seneca evidently said 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna', which the book
translates as 'Fortune batters and torments us.'
This has me puzzling about word order in Latin ; I suspect I'll still be
puzzling about it when I fall off the perch, but it seems important to grasp
it as best I can, even this early .
I thought Seneca had switched from 'Fortuna nos verberat et lacerat' (the
everyday word order?), to 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna' so as to
emphasize the suffering. But, if that were so, the English translation of
the intended meaning would have to be more like 'Lashed and tormented by
fortune are we.'
Am I falling into the trap of thinking in English? Is it the case that, in
Latin, the part that the speaker wants to emphasize goes at the end of the
sentence, so Seneca is pointing out that we are mere pawns of fate: it's
blind chance that is plaguing us (or, as Charlie Drake used to say, 'You
can't help bad luck.'!) ?
Word order in Latin is rather poorly treated by the main grammars; it
deserves some more study I should think to work out properly.

All too often, people say something like 'Latin (or Greek or Sanskrit)
has no word order', which is a misunderstanding - word order simply
performs a different linguistic function in Latin than it does in
English and similar languages.

As it is, you seem to have a fair grasp of the main points (as
understood by most, at least). Most people think of Latin as having a
basic word order as follows, with the possibility of virtually any of
these parts as being left out (though not all at once of course!):
subject+attributes - object+attributes - other adverbial information -
verb

This is the unmarked pattern; deviations from this generally call
attention to the word in a deviant position. The most emphatic
positions are at the beginning and the end of the sentence; thus a
simple subject - verb sentence would call attention to itself if it
appeared verb - subject instead.

So you are absolutely right in your analysis of Seneca's sentence
above: 'verberat nos et lacerat fortuna' is a rather striking
transformation of what may have been more meekly expressed as 'fortuna
nos verberat et lacerat'. It's a version that really emphasises the
violence of the action.

As far as how to translate it into English, that depends on what you're
doing as a translator. If your aim is simply to convery the basic
meaning of the words or a crib, 'fortune batters and torments us' is
absolutely fine. If your aim is to try to reproduce for the reader of
the English the feelings that you think the Latin evoked for its
original audience, you'll try something more adventurous.

This is, of course, where subjectivity comes in. If we start by
admitting that a given text is a piece of art, then we are left to
wonder what right the translation has to that title. I think most
people here would agree that a translation at best conveys the artistry
of the translator, not the original author. The fact is that there are
so many veils to cloud our understanding: it is virtually impossible to
fully comprehend Seneca's instincts in his language or his expectation
of how his audience worked, so we essentially have to guess at what
'normal' word order is, what range of tolerance of deviations from this
'normality' (which is the product of our guess to begin with) exists,
what a given deviation might have meant, how significant any given
deviation would have felt within a text. At the end, all we can say is
that it is somehow something more 'emphatic'. On the other hand, there
are several ways of expressing things in English, that we as native
English speakers generally understand quite well, though not
necessarily consciously. These different expressions almost certainly
do not correspond in a one-to-one relationship with the Latin range of
variants - just like vocabulary - given the extremely different
cultural environments in which the two languages have developed. So in
the end, as a translator, you have to guess at what you think the Latin
meant to its author and audience, then select from a group of
approximations in your own language. To pass off the end product as the
artistry of the original author is, in my view, virtually always
dishonest. To ignore these problems and think that we have special
access to understanding the original fully is arrogant and foolhardy.

That's why I think of translations as reflecting the skills or artistry
of the translator only: I appreciate Melville, along with Pope and
Dryden, as poets of English and judge them by the standards I would use
for any other English poet. On the other hand, if I want to consider
the artistry of Ovid, I turn to my Latin text, admit that I'm not an
Augustan Roman and can never become one, and try my hardest to notice
what I think Ovid would have wanted his audience to and not notice what
I think he wouldn't have. Maybe I can get about a 60% - 80% success
rate - could hardly hope for anything higher - but that's enough to
enjoy the man and appreciate him as a great wordsmith.

Neeraj Mathur
Ignotus
2005-12-20 03:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neeraj Mathur
Most people think of Latin as having a
basic word order as follows, with the possibility of virtually any of
subject+attributes - object+attributes - other adverbial information -
verb
This is the unmarked pattern; deviations from this generally call
attention to the word in a deviant position. The most emphatic
positions are at the beginning and the end of the sentence; thus a
simple subject - verb sentence would call attention to itself if it
appeared verb - subject instead.
So you are absolutely right in your analysis of Seneca's sentence
above: 'verberat nos et lacerat fortuna' is a rather striking
transformation of what may have been more meekly expressed as 'fortuna
nos verberat et lacerat'. It's a version that really emphasises the
violence of the action.
As far as how to translate it into English, that depends on what you're
doing as a translator. If your aim is simply to convery the basic
meaning of the words or a crib, 'fortune batters and torments us' is
absolutely fine. If your aim is to try to reproduce for the reader of
the English the feelings that you think the Latin evoked for its
original audience, you'll try something more adventurous.
Very good. Thanks for your trouble, Neeraj.

I must say I'm getting a good dose of lofty erudition : I just read the
Dorothy (unmentionable Leigh?) Sayers article that Eduardus directed us to.
She points out that I should have started this 63 years ago.
Heaven help me when I get to Lesson 2 !
Ed Cryer
2005-12-20 17:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
hiding your lights under a bushel. That's a
Post by Ed Cryer
pretty good Latin response. What are you doing posing as the Aussie
beginner? Perhaps you should be teaching us!
I pinched it holus-bolus from my Collins Dictionary & Grammar, Ed. Just
lucky it was so apposite.
While I've got you, I must ask you about another of the classical
Seneca evidently said 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna', which the book
translates as 'Fortune batters and torments us.'
This has me puzzling about word order in Latin ; I suspect I'll still be
puzzling about it when I fall off the perch, but it seems important to
grasp it as best I can, even this early .
I thought Seneca had switched from 'Fortuna nos verberat et lacerat' (the
everyday word order?), to 'Verberat nos et lacerat fortuna' so as to
emphasize the suffering. But, if that were so, the English translation of
the intended meaning would have to be more like 'Lashed and tormented by
fortune are we.'
Am I falling into the trap of thinking in English? Is it the case that, in
Latin, the part that the speaker wants to emphasize goes at the end of the
sentence, so Seneca is pointing out that we are mere pawns of fate: it's
blind chance that is plaguing us (or, as Charlie Drake used to say, 'You
can't help bad luck.'!) ?
P.S. What's with the innuendo about 'pre-Christian morals'? Aren't you a
Socrates man? (not to mention Aristotle.)
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
From the Golden Latin of Caesar, Cicero and Sallust to the Silver Latin of
Seneca, Tacitus and Juvenal isn't, in my humble opinion, so much a matter of
grammatical change as a change of style, presentation and taste. Just as
English has changed over the centuries. Or if you compare, say, the short
periods of Hemmingway with those of Steinbeck.
Julius Caesar laid his prose out like an army in the field; all orderly and
regular. Verb usually at the end.

Now, Seneca had a penchant for putting the verb as the first word in the
sentence; and this (so I believe) far more than any of his fellow Latinists.
Or at least in the Letters of a Stoic, of which I've read quite a few.
It does, as you say, alter the emphasis (and hence the meaning a little),
but it's a stylistic idiosyncracy in Seneca. As to why he did it, I dunno.
perhaps to get as far away from Caesar's Latin as possible. {:-
Although a more likely explanation is that it goes with his overall style;
pointed and aphoristic.

Ed
Ed Cryer
2005-12-20 17:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
P.S. What's with the innuendo about 'pre-Christian morals'? Aren't you a
Socrates man? (not to mention Aristotle.)
The Romans weren't Greeks; nor were they philosophical in temperament.
I suppose, yes, I am a Socrates man, if by that you mean someone who
navigates their way through life under the aegis of philosophy rather than
religion or the ways of the masses.

But we're being "blessed" (I won't say "cursed"!) over here with a TV series
at the moment called "Rome". And one of the main actors gave an interview
(which was on the Net, but I can't find now) explaining how you couldn't
apply today's moral outlook to the times of Julius Caesar.

Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK academic who
goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees very much with that one.
He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving a radio interview about recent
films like "Alexander" and "Troy", here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with FF15mins,
FF5mins.)

Ed

P.S. Don't push me on the Greek philosophy/Christianity thing. I might just
end up pouring out my thesis on how Plato invented the whole of
Christianity.
John Briggs
2005-12-20 17:22:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK academic
who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees very much
with that one. He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving a radio
interview about recent films like "Alexander" and "Troy", here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with
FF15mins, FF5mins.)
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say "broadcaster" -
impolite, "journalist".
--
John Briggs
Ed Cryer
2005-12-20 17:40:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK academic
who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees very much
with that one. He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving a radio
interview about recent films like "Alexander" and "Troy", here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with
FF15mins, FF5mins.)
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say "broadcaster" -
impolite, "journalist".
--
John Briggs
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon history at Oriel
College, Oxford, not an academic?

Ed
John Briggs
2005-12-20 18:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK
academic who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees
very much with that one. He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving
a radio interview about recent films like "Alexander" and "Troy",
here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with
FF15mins, FF5mins.)
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say
"broadcaster" - impolite, "journalist".
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon history
at Oriel College, Oxford, not an academic?
Correct. Failed academic, perhaps? I would have loved to have read his
thesis, if he had ever finished it.
--
John Briggs
Ed Cryer
2005-12-20 18:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK
academic who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees
very much with that one. He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving
a radio interview about recent films like "Alexander" and "Troy",
here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with
FF15mins, FF5mins.)
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say
"broadcaster" - impolite, "journalist".
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon history
at Oriel College, Oxford, not an academic?
Correct. Failed academic, perhaps? I would have loved to have read his
thesis, if he had ever finished it.
--
John Briggs
See here for "academic".
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/academic

The original Academus was a hero of old Attica. Plato set up his school in
gardens sacred to him, NW of Athens. They were called "academics", but the
word's usage has changed.

Ed
John Briggs
2005-12-20 21:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK
academic who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees
very much with that one. He's called Michael Wood, and he's giving
a radio interview about recent films like "Alexander" and "Troy",
here;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/parkinson
(about 20 mins from beginning) (You can get there quickly with
FF15mins, FF5mins.)
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say
"broadcaster" - impolite, "journalist".
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon history
at Oriel College, Oxford, not an academic?
Correct. Failed academic, perhaps? I would have loved to have read
his thesis, if he had ever finished it.
See here for "academic".
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/academic
That defines it as a university teacher, which I believe he never was.
Post by Ed Cryer
The original Academus was a hero of old Attica. Plato set up his
school in gardens sacred to him, NW of Athens. They were called
"academics", but the word's usage has changed.
Not much, if you confine it to the teachers.
--
John Briggs
Mike Lyle
2005-12-20 21:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK
academic who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees
very much with that one. He's called Michael Wood,
[...]
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say
"broadcaster" - impolite, "journalist".
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon
history
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
at Oriel College, Oxford, not an academic?
Correct. Failed academic, perhaps? I would have loved to have
read
Post by John Briggs
his thesis, if he had ever finished it.
Not sure why you're so snooty about him. The only times I've ever
heard him, he seemed sound enough.
--
Mike.
John Briggs
2005-12-20 21:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Although I can't find that interview, there is one with a UK
academic who goes in for popularizing the classics, which agrees
very much with that one. He's called Michael Wood,
[...]
Post by John Briggs
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by John Briggs
He's not an academic. If I were being polite I would say
"broadcaster" - impolite, "journalist".
You call a man who did postgraduate research in Anglo-Saxon history
at Oriel College, Oxford, not an academic?
Correct. Failed academic, perhaps? I would have loved to have read
his thesis, if he had ever finished it.
Not sure why you're so snooty about him. The only times I've ever
heard him, he seemed sound enough.
I'm just being accurate - pedantic, academic, if you wish. I'm perfectly
serious about his thesis. His research related to Eric Bloodaxe - that is
why the first series, "In Search of the Dark Ages", was so compelling, and
the most accurate. His other films are more variable - there are some real
howlers in his Shakespeare series.
--
John Briggs
Ed Cryer
2005-12-20 17:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale. Unfortunately the
delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman things
weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well into
the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd stripped
three continents of every wild beast available.

Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its Moral.
He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)

Ed
B. T. Raven
2005-12-20 22:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale. Unfortunately the
delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman things
weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well into
the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd stripped
three continents of every wild beast available.
Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its Moral.
He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)
Ed
Sounds like the Minnesota Vikings football team on Lake Minnetonka
(obscure local allusion).
Ignotus
2005-12-20 22:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. T. Raven
Sounds like the Minnesota Vikings football team on Lake Minnetonka
(obscure local allusion).
--------------------------------------------------------


I tried to send this as a reply to Ed but the "somewhere.in.the.UK" address
was rejected! So I'll try the other Ed.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cryer" <***@somewhere.in.the.UK>
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale. Unfortunately
the delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman
things weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well
into the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd
stripped three continents of every wild beast available.
Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its
Moral. He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence
from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)
Ed
I promise you I view that sentence as formidable, Ed, but at least I can see
that the word at the end is a verb.
What you say suggests that Neeraj's 'regular' structure [ subject >
modifier(adjective) > object > adverb or prepositional phrase> predicate
(verb) ] is little more than an option. But at least it gives me a skeleton
to hang my feeble attempts at sentence creation on.
( I'm relieved to know that you're not another Dorothy, i.e. a Christian
apologist, though I enjoyed her short treatise on the subject of Latin
Grammar - not to mention the trenchant afterthoughts of Mr Corvus)
I asked those other questions because, in the processes of learning
elementary Latin, I'm picking up snippets of Roman history and I call to
mind a fellow I worked with in the Immigration Department. Fascinating
bloke. He was of Chinese extraction but he was crazy about classical Greek
culture -and he could sit down at a piano and play Faure or Chopin, which
made me green with the proverbial. His disdain for all things Roman was
imperial: he saw them as little more than militaristic baboons who had no
imagination and give the world nothing more than a few bits of civil
engineering. The best he could say of them was that they give shelter to
Plotinus. I don't think he was a Christian either, but he definitely thought
Plotinus was the bees knees.
I'd better stop this before that Agamemnon geezer leaps in and roars "Told
you so!"
One thing dear Dorothy couldn't enjoy in her day was this newsgroup. I think
it's more entertaining and more valuable than either of my textbooks.
Have a good Christian orgy, and go easy on the macadamias.
B. T. Raven
2005-12-20 22:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Post by B. T. Raven
Sounds like the Minnesota Vikings football team on Lake Minnetonka
(obscure local allusion).
--------------------------------------------------------
I tried to send this as a reply to Ed but the "somewhere.in.the.UK" address
was rejected! So I'll try the other Ed.
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale.
Unfortunately
Post by Ignotus
Post by B. T. Raven
the delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman
things weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well
into the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd
stripped three continents of every wild beast available.
Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its
Moral. He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence
from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)
Ed
I promise you I view that sentence as formidable, Ed, but at least I can see
that the word at the end is a verb.
What you say suggests that Neeraj's 'regular' structure [ subject >
modifier(adjective) > object > adverb or prepositional phrase> predicate
(verb) ] is little more than an option. But at least it gives me a skeleton
to hang my feeble attempts at sentence creation on.
( I'm relieved to know that you're not another Dorothy, i.e. a Christian
apologist, though I enjoyed her short treatise on the subject of Latin
Grammar - not to mention the trenchant afterthoughts of Mr Corvus)
I asked those other questions because, in the processes of learning
elementary Latin, I'm picking up snippets of Roman history and I call to
mind a fellow I worked with in the Immigration Department. Fascinating
bloke. He was of Chinese extraction but he was crazy about classical Greek
culture -and he could sit down at a piano and play Faure or Chopin, which
made me green with the proverbial. His disdain for all things Roman was
imperial: he saw them as little more than militaristic baboons who had no
imagination and give the world nothing more than a few bits of civil
engineering. The best he could say of them was that they give shelter to
Plotinus. I don't think he was a Christian either, but he definitely thought
Plotinus was the bees knees.
I'd better stop this before that Agamemnon geezer leaps in and roars "Told
you so!"
One thing dear Dorothy couldn't enjoy in her day was this newsgroup. I think
it's more entertaining and more valuable than either of my textbooks.
Have a good Christian orgy, and go easy on the macadamias.
Also go easy on the macadam. Remember that civil engineers have saved more
lives in the last two centuries than the disciples of Hippocrates have in
the last twenty. Think sanitary sewage treatment.

Other Ed. (just post to the ng like you did here. Anything sent directly
to B.T. is mass deleted in batch mode. I never see it.)
bob
2005-12-21 22:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 22:59:50 GMT
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Think sanitary sewage treatment.
Once when I was staying in a cheap hotel in the D.F. I had a bidet which was
only equipped with cold water. The morning after a night of Tequila and
lemon wedges, that cold blast to the neter regions of my anatomy was a real
life saver.

Bob
Ed Cryer
2005-12-21 16:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Post by B. T. Raven
Sounds like the Minnesota Vikings football team on Lake Minnetonka
(obscure local allusion).
--------------------------------------------------------
I tried to send this as a reply to Ed but the "somewhere.in.the.UK"
address was rejected! So I'll try the other Ed.
----- Original Message -----
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:33 AM
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Post by B. T. Raven
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale. Unfortunately
the delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman
things weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well
into the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd
stripped three continents of every wild beast available.
Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its
Moral. He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence
from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)
Ed
I promise you I view that sentence as formidable, Ed, but at least I can see
that the word at the end is a verb.
What you say suggests that Neeraj's 'regular' structure [ subject >
modifier(adjective) > object > adverb or prepositional phrase> predicate
(verb) ] is little more than an option. But at least it gives me a skeleton
to hang my feeble attempts at sentence creation on.
( I'm relieved to know that you're not another Dorothy, i.e. a Christian
apologist, though I enjoyed her short treatise on the subject of Latin
Grammar - not to mention the trenchant afterthoughts of Mr Corvus)
I asked those other questions because, in the processes of learning
elementary Latin, I'm picking up snippets of Roman history and I call to
mind a fellow I worked with in the Immigration Department. Fascinating
bloke. He was of Chinese extraction but he was crazy about classical Greek
culture -and he could sit down at a piano and play Faure or Chopin, which
made me green with the proverbial. His disdain for all things Roman was
imperial: he saw them as little more than militaristic baboons who had no
imagination and give the world nothing more than a few bits of civil
engineering. The best he could say of them was that they give shelter to
Plotinus. I don't think he was a Christian either, but he definitely thought
Plotinus was the bees knees.
I'd better stop this before that Agamemnon geezer leaps in and roars "Told
you so!"
One thing dear Dorothy couldn't enjoy in her day was this newsgroup. I think
it's more entertaining and more valuable than either of my textbooks.
Have a good Christian orgy, and go easy on the macadamias.
Your friend sounds more of an intellectual than I am. I can see that ancient
Greece gave us a lot of our mental furniture, but I respect the Romans for
having provided so much of the real stuff.
Did you ever see Monty Python's Life of Brian? John Cleese, as a leader of
the Let's Liberate Palestine from the Romans organisation, puts the question
"What did the Romans ever do for you?" And he gets an answer "The roads,
aqueducts, sewers, education system, wine, peace..etc".

They invented concrete and the arch, and they put them to use with great
skill and energy. Many things achieved by old Roman engineers have us
moderns wondering just how the hell they did it.
Julius Caesar tells of some of the siege operations in Gaul; miles and miles
of walls, towers, ditches; bridges thrown across the Rhine at its widest
points, and in ten days.

The Colosseum alone provides much room for argument. How did they manage to
flood the arena and stage a sea-battle? How did they provide a canopy over
it that could be moved in and out?

Ed

P.S. Have you ever read any ancient accounts of a typical day in the
Colosseum? They just leave me staggering. The scale of it; the numbers. Even
Hollywood and Russell Crowe didn't give a picture to match what I've read.
The wealth pouring into Rome, and being used to provide "munera" (public
games) is beyond our modern ability to re-present.
bob
2005-12-21 22:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Newsgroups: alt.language.latin
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 16:00:51 -0000
Subject: Re: ho ho hic haec hoc
Julius Caesar tells of some of the siege operations in Gaul; miles and miles
of walls, towers, ditches; bridges thrown across the Rhine at its widest
points, and in ten days.
Did he call it "Operation Gallic Freedom"?

Bob
Robert Stonehouse
2005-12-21 07:39:49 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:33:26 -0000, "Ed Cryer"
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by Ignotus
P.P.S. Did Romans lack a sense of humour? Did they enjoy music?
The Romans knew how to have a good time on a large scale. Unfortunately the
delights of the Colosseum, the Circus Maximus, orgies and other Roman things
weren't to the taste of Christians, so they got rid of them.
That said, though, the Colosseum carried on way after Constantine, well into
the 5th c AD. I think they finally went out of business when they'd stripped
three continents of every wild beast available.
Another Roman good time was had at Baiae; a kind of ancient Blackpool and
Pleasure Beach in the bay of Naples.
There's a letter of Seneca (LI;
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/sen/seneca.ep5.shtml) on Baiae and its Moral.
He hated it, just as he hated the Colosseum. This is a sentence from it;
Videre ebrios per litora errantes et comessationes navigantium et
symphoniarum cantibus strepentes lacus et alia quae velut soluta legibus
luxuria non tantum peccat sed publicat, quid necesse est?
(To see drunks wandering along the shore, the revels of pleasure cruises,
groves resounding with musical performances and other things, which luxury
let loose not only does but does in public, well, who needs it?)
In one sense, 'legibus solutus' indicates the tyrant who was
above the law - as certain recent British Home Secretaries
seemed to think they were.

But as used here, it recalls to me a comment from a police
high-up about the rules for taxis: 'Otherwise, everybody
would just do whatever they liked'. Now that seems to me
like the most desirable situation possible. If we can do
that, without disaster, then that is what freedom is.

So I don't see Seneca as anything different from the
Calvinist elders who made Rabbie Burns stand in a white
sheet. Which (if I have not been plain enough) is not good.
--
Robert Stonehouse
To mail me, replace invalid with uk. Inconvenience regretted
Colin Fine
2005-12-21 01:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one is
feminine and the other is masculine.
I don't know the gender of 'mores' without looking it up (though I would
guess masc.) but I certainly know that 'tempora' is neuter. Plural of
'tempus'.

Colin
Ignotus
2005-12-21 01:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Ah, yes. So does that make it is the antecedent of 'haec'?
Post by Colin Fine
Post by Ignotus
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one
is feminine and the other is masculine.
I don't know the gender of 'mores' without looking it up (though I would
guess masc.) but I certainly know that 'tempora' is neuter. Plural of
'tempus'.
Colin
Grant Hicks
2005-12-21 04:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Ah, yes. So does that make it is the antecedent of 'haec'?
Haec doesn't need a direct antecedent. Did you see the note I posted on
Sunday?

"Latin often uses neuter adjectives as substantives meaning 'things [of such
a kind]'. 'Multa' = many things; 'mala' = evils (bad things), etc. See for
example the Vulgate translation of the Magnificat, where Maria says
'esurientes implevit bonis' -- He hath filled the hungry with good things.
In cases like this, there is no noun for the adjective to agree with.'

Besides, it doesn't make sense to relate "haec" back to either "tempora" or
"mores". It's not the times or the manners that the Senate has seen, it's
the evidence of Catiline's conspiracy.

Grant
Post by Ignotus
Post by Colin Fine
Post by Ignotus
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one
is feminine and the other is masculine.
I don't know the gender of 'mores' without looking it up (though I would
guess masc.) but I certainly know that 'tempora' is neuter. Plural of
'tempus'.
Colin
Ignotus
2005-12-21 05:14:48 UTC
Permalink
I'm sorry, I must have read your previous posting without due thought. I
wanted to see the term 'demonstrative pronoun' in there and must have
decided that the advice on neuter adjectives could be digested later,
without realising that it related to antecedents in exactly the same way.
Please excuse my idiocy. (At least I'm good at picking nicknames.)
Thanks to you and to Neeraj for your patient and much-appreciated
explanations.
Post by Grant Hicks
Post by Ignotus
Ah, yes. So does that make it is the antecedent of 'haec'?
Haec doesn't need a direct antecedent. Did you see the note I posted on
Sunday?
"Latin often uses neuter adjectives as substantives meaning 'things [of such
a kind]'. 'Multa' = many things; 'mala' = evils (bad things), etc. See for
example the Vulgate translation of the Magnificat, where Maria says
'esurientes implevit bonis' -- He hath filled the hungry with good things.
In cases like this, there is no noun for the adjective to agree with.'
Besides, it doesn't make sense to relate "haec" back to either "tempora"
or "mores". It's not the times or the manners that the Senate has seen,
it's the evidence of Catiline's conspiracy.
Grant
Post by Ignotus
Post by Colin Fine
Post by Ignotus
And it can't be 'tempora' and 'mores' acting as antecedents because one
is feminine and the other is masculine.
I don't know the gender of 'mores' without looking it up (though I would
guess masc.) but I certainly know that 'tempora' is neuter. Plural of
'tempus'.
Colin
Neeraj Mathur
2005-12-21 04:15:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ignotus
Ah, yes. So does that make it is the antecedent of 'haec'?
Post by Colin Fine
I don't know the gender of 'mores' without looking it up (though I would
guess masc.) but I certainly know that 'tempora' is neuter. Plural of
'tempus'.
No, 'tempora' is not the antecedent of haec.

The best way of thinking about this is just to note that 'hic' can have
a logical antecedent that is not explicitly present in the grammar;
since gender, as we know, belongs to specific words only, and it's
possible for words that refer to the same thing to have different
genders, Latin simply puts 'hic' in the neuter when the antecedent is
logical but not a specific word present in the text. The antecedent can
be logically plural, though, and so we get 'hoc' and 'haec' meaning
'this' or 'these' when the antecedent is simply something understood.

So when Cicero said 'Senatus haec intelligit', the thought in his head
was probably the same to what it would have been if he'd said 'Senatus
res gestae Catilinae intelligit', but that specific phrase was not. If
you have a look at this speech in translation, you will see that it's
perfectly clear to the audience exactly what he's talking about, and
what he's telling the Senators that they know.

You can easily imagine that you and I could be having a conversation
about, say, the electability of David Cameron if he were leader of the
Lib Dems rather than the Conservatives, without either one of us ever
actually saying that exact phrase. You might then say to me, 'I think
that's bollocks', and I'd know that what you mean by 'that' is more or
less the same as 'David Cameron would be more electable as the leader
of the Lib Dems rather than of the Tories', but the phrase would never
have been said.

Since English texts don't necessarily allow the same flow as a Latin
text (as we talked about translation elsewhere), people translating
from Latin to English often translate a 'hoc' or 'haec' whose
antecedent is logical rather than an explicit word or phrase with
something like 'this/these thing(s)'. In fact, neuter adjectives are
used regularly in Latin when the thing they're agreeing with is logical
rather than expressed, and these are all often translated into English
with 'thing' (as others mentioned), so 'multa et bona fecit pro patria
nostra' 'he did many great things for this our country'. The fact that
the Latin feminine word 'res' is also translated 'thing' more often
than not is essentially a coincidence.

Neeraj Mathur
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