o me miserum

[g***@gmail.com]

A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the well known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not having any obvious subject or transitive verb.

Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

[Ed Cryer]

Post by g***@gmail.com
A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the well known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not having any obvious subject or transitive verb.
Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

For "me miserum!" you might claim that it's object case because of an
underlying assumption that he's the victim, the recipient of some devilry.
But with "me felicem!" I don't have that on my side. Unless, perhaps,
you believe that Fortuna or some other divinities call all the shots.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by g***@gmail.com
A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to
express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the well
known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not having any
obvious subject or transitive verb.
Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

For "me miserum!" you might claim that it's object case because of an
underlying assumption that he's the victim, the recipient of some devilry.
But with "me felicem!" I don't have that on my side. Unless, perhaps,
you believe that Fortuna or some other divinities call all the shots.
Ed

This is from Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and
Colleges. They claim that such expressions usually depend upon some
long-forgotten verb.


[*] d. The Accusative is used in Exclamations:—

ō fortūnātam rem pūblicam, O fortunate republic! [Cf. ō
fortūnāta mors (Phil. 14.31), oh, happy death! (§ 339. a).]
“ō mē īnfēlīcem ” (Mil. 102) , oh, unhappy I!
mē miserum, ah, wretched me!
“ēn quattuor ārās ” (Ecl. 5.65) , lo, four altars!
ellum (=em illum), there he is! [Cf. § 146. a. N.2.]
eccōs (=ecce eōs), there they are, look at them!
prō deum fidem, good heavens (O protection of the gods)!
“hōcine saeclum ” (Ter. Ad. 304) , O this generation!
“huncine hominem ” (Verr. 5.62) , this man, good heavens!

[*] Note 1.--Such expressions usually depend upon some long-forgotten
verb. The substantive is commonly accompanied by an adjective. The use
of -ne in some cases suggests an original question, as in quid? what?
why? tell me.

[*] Note 2.--The omission of the verb has given rise to some other
idiomatic accusatives. Such are:—

salūtem (sc. dīcit) (in addressing a letter), greeting.
mē dīus fidius (sc. adiuvet), so help me heaven (the god of faith).
“unde mihī lapidem ” (Hor. S. 2.7.116) , where can I get a stone?
“quō mihi fortūnam ” (Hor. Ep. 1.5.12) , of what use to me is
fortune? [No verb thought of.]

********************

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by g***@gmail.com
A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to
express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the
well known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not
having any obvious subject or transitive verb.
Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

For "me miserum!" you might claim that it's object case because of an
underlying assumption that he's the victim, the recipient of some devilry.
But with "me felicem!" I don't have that on my side. Unless, perhaps,
you believe that Fortuna or some other divinities call all the shots.
Ed

This is from Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for Schools and
Colleges. They claim that such expressions usually depend upon some
long-forgotten verb.
[*] d. The Accusative is used in Exclamations:—
        ō fortūnātam rem pūblicam, O fortunate republic! [Cf. ō
fortūnāta mors (Phil. 14.31), oh, happy death! (§ 339. a).]
    “ō mē īnfēlīcem ” (Mil. 102) , oh, unhappy I!
    mē miserum, ah, wretched me!
    “ēn quattuor ārās ” (Ecl. 5.65) , lo, four altars!
    ellum (=em illum), there he is! [Cf. § 146. a. N.2.]
    eccōs (=ecce eōs), there they are, look at them!
    prō deum fidem, good heavens (O protection of the gods)!
    “hōcine saeclum ” (Ter. Ad. 304) , O this generation!
    “huncine hominem ” (Verr. 5.62) , this man, good heavens!
[*] Note 1.--Such expressions usually depend upon some long-forgotten
verb. The substantive is commonly accompanied by an adjective. The use
of -ne in some cases suggests an original question, as in quid? what?
why? tell me.
[*] Note 2.--The omission of the verb has given rise to some other
idiomatic accusatives. Such are:—
    salūtem (sc. dīcit) (in addressing a letter), greeting.
    mē dīus fidius (sc. adiuvet), so help me heaven (the god of faith).
    “unde mihī lapidem ” (Hor. S. 2.7.116) , where can I get a stone?
    “quō mihi fortūnam ” (Hor. Ep. 1.5.12) , of what use to me is
fortune? [No verb thought of.]
********************
Ed

Gildersleeve's Latin Grammar has extensions of this usage, including the
following at 534;
https://goo.gl/9h1UUg

It may have originated as "minor" but it developed some major evolved
patterns.

Ed

[John W Kennedy]

Post by g***@gmail.com
A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the well known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not having any obvious subject or transitive verb.
Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

It’s called the “accusative of exclamation”, a fairly standard Latin
use. Maybe it made more sense in Proto-Italic. (It’s also rarely found
in Greek.) Some point out the similarity to “woe is me”, but that has
its origins in the dative (cf. German “Weh ist mir”.

[Jane Sullivan]

Post by g***@gmail.com
A very minor point, but a discussion with a friend about how to express "happy me" and "unhappy me" brought up the point that the well known 'o me miserum' is actually an accusative, despite not having any obvious subject or transitive verb.
Is it an abbreviated quote, or is there another reason for it being in the acusative ?

Kennedy, Revised Latin Primer, paragraph 209, says

An accusative noun or pronoun (generally accompanied by an adjective) is used in exclamations, with or without an interjection: me miserum, o wretched
me! o fragilem fortunam! O fickle fortune!

Best wishes

[g***@gmail.com]

Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn it all !

[Evertjan.]

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn
it all !

Well, we seem to have had 2000 years of time.

Of what modern language you can say that?

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Evertjan.

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn
it all !

Well, we seem to have had 2000 years of time.
Of what modern language you can say that?

How about Greek?

Ed

[Evertjan.]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Evertjan.

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn
it all !

Well, we seem to have had 2000 years of time.
Of what modern language you can say that?

How about Greek?

The modern language is not "the same language".
Modern Greek is a [re]constructed language,
like modern Hebrew, Indonesian, etc.

[Which does not mean the natural process is not in play,
and such language is not interesting, methinks]

That Greek has the same name as the ancient one,
and Italian/Latin not, is just a coincidence.

Then English would be Ango-Saxon.

Perhaps it is rather not that simple.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Evertjan.

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn
it all !

Well, we seem to have had 2000 years of time.
Of what modern language you can say that?

How about Greek?

The modern language is not "the same language".
Modern Greek is a [re]constructed language,
like modern Hebrew, Indonesian, etc.
[Which does not mean the natural process is not in play,
and such language is not interesting, methinks]
That Greek has the same name as the ancient one,
and Italian/Latin not, is just a coincidence.
Then English would be Ango-Saxon.
Perhaps it is rather not that simple.

This could have been read by Plato and Thucydides 2,500 years ago, and
fully understood.
“Ο θάνατος του Δαντόν”, το πρώτο θεατρικό έργο του Γκέοργκ Μπύχνερ, το
οποίο έγραψε το 1835 σε ηλικία 21 ετών και ενώ...."
https://goo.gl/WJvdJj

And Greek is a living language, unlike Latin.

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Evertjan.

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Evertjan.

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the
accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn
it all !

Well, we seem to have had 2000 years of time.
Of what modern language you can say that?

How about Greek?

The modern language is not "the same language".
Modern Greek is a [re]constructed language,
like modern Hebrew, Indonesian, etc.
[Which does not mean the natural process is not in play,
and such language is not interesting, methinks]
That Greek has the same name as the ancient one,
and Italian/Latin not, is just a coincidence.
Then English would be Ango-Saxon.
Perhaps it is rather not that simple.

This could have been read by Plato and Thucydides 2,500 years ago, and
fully understood.
“Ο θάνατος του Δαντόν”, το πρώτο θεατρικό έργο του Γκέοργκ Μπύχνερ, το
οποίο έγραψε το 1835 σε ηλικία 21 ετών και ενώ...."
https://goo.gl/WJvdJj
And Greek is a living language, unlike Latin.
Ed

This is Thucydides' opening line, in the original and in a modern Greek
version. T would have fully understood the latter, as, indeed, do I.

Θουκυδίδης Ἀθηναῖος ξυνέγραψε τὸν πόλεμον τῶν Πελοποννησίων καὶ
Ἀθηναίων, ὡς ἐπολέμησαν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, ἀρξάμενος εὐθὺς καθισταμένου

Θουκυδίδης, ο Αθηναίος, έγραψε την ιστορίαν του πολέμου μεταξύ των
Πελοποννησίων και των Αθηναίων. Την συγγραφήν αυτού ήρχισεν ευθύς εξ
αρχής της εκρήξεώς του,

Ed

[Ed Cryer]

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to learn it all !

So then, the Latin for "Sheesh! To think that my country has come to
this!" is something like;
Eheu, meam patriam ad hoc discrimen dilapsam esse!

Ed

[Evertjan.]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by g***@gmail.com
Thanks for the prompt responses. I hadn't come across the accusative of
exclamation before. Alas, so much Latin grammar, so little time to
learn it all !

So then, the Latin for "Sheesh! To think that my country has come to
this!" is something like;
Eheu, meam patriam ad hoc discrimen dilapsam esse!

acc. cum inf.?